6 Vs 12 Points, Why Is 12 So Prevalent? | Adventure Rider

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Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Ceri JC, Jun 29, 2010.

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1. Ceri JC, Jun 29, 2010 #1

   Ceri JC UK GSer

   Joined: Sep 14, 2009 Oddometer: 2,462 Location: All over, usually Wales or England

   The general consensus of "internet wisdom" across a range of websites, not just here, is that 12 point sockets and wrenches are inferior to 6 point ones and damage bolt heads. Contrary to manufacturers' claims that 12 points drive on the "sides" of heads and are less likely to round off bolts, I find that the internet wisdom is, in this instance, correct. In my experience, there are very few situations where a 12 pointer is better than a 6 pointer: 1) Where the head is already damaged, a 12 is more likely to fit. In comparison a 6-point bolt head only needs to be 'splashed' a bit before a 6 point tool won't fit on it. 2) When working in cramped space, a 12 pointer requires less rotation to get 'on' to the bolt. Not a real 'reason' to use them, given the disadvantages; just laziness. A 6 pointer will still always fit where a 12 would (unless it's damaged), it'll just take a bit longer to fit. So considering the only real advantage is as a sort of half way house between a 'proper' socket and a stud extractor for when it goes wrong, whats the reason(s) for so many tool manufacturers to provide most of their sockets/spanners as 12, rather than 6 point? Surely they should just be an 'nice to have' tool for toolkits which are already very well equipped? I'd be interested in hearing inmates' opinions on this. My own feeling is that it's something to do with the tolerances of 12s being able to be much sloppier than that of 6s and it'll still fit, which probably makes the tools cheaper to manufacture.

   #1
2. Scudman, Jun 29, 2010 #2

   Scudman Long timer

   Joined: Apr 30, 2009 Oddometer: 5,381

   Ceri JC said:

   The general consensus of "internet wisdom" across a range of websites, not just here, is that 12 point sockets and wrenches are inferior to 6 point ones and damage bolt heads. Contrary to manufacturers' claims that 12 points drive on the "sides" of heads and are less likely to round off bolts, I find that the internet wisdom is, in this instance, correct. In my experience, there are very few situations where a 12 pointer is better than a 6 pointer: 1) Where the head is already damaged, a 12 is more likely to fit. In comparison a 6-point bolt head only needs to be 'splashed' a bit before a 6 point tool won't fit on it. 2) When working in cramped space, a 12 pointer requires less rotation to get 'on' to the bolt. Not a real 'reason' to use them, given the disadvantages; just laziness. A 6 pointer will still always fit where a 12 would (unless it's damaged), it'll just take a bit longer to fit. So considering the only real advantage is as a sort of half way house between a 'proper' socket and a stud extractor for when it goes wrong, whats the reason(s) for so many tool manufacturers to provide most of their sockets/spanners as 12, rather than 6 point? Surely they should just be an 'nice to have' tool for toolkits which are already very well equipped? I'd be interested in hearing inmates' opinions on this. My own feeling is that it's something to do with the tolerances of 12s being able to be much sloppier than that of 6s and it'll still fit, which probably makes the tools cheaper to manufacture.Click to expand...

   12 point bolts are used in aviation as they save weight and are easier to install in tight places. Since a 12 point works on a hex bolt you only need to make one socket or wrench per size.

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3. C Squared, Jun 29, 2010 #3

   C Squared Now without TURBO! Supporter

   Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Oddometer: 13,663 Location: FDL WI.

   I only grab a 12 pt if I need it for the fastener... 6 pt is always a better choice I assume the 12 pt is cheaper etc. is probably spot on. The only reason to NEED the 12 pt for rotation is if you are using a breaker bar. Ratchet drives tend to negate this idea.

   #3
4. Z50R, Jun 29, 2010 #4

   Z50R Not lost yet

   Joined: May 11, 2009 Oddometer: 2,360 Location: Boston Mass.

   I prefer 12 point in sockets and box wrenches. If you are trying to use a breaker bar you get few options for bolt position with a 6 point socket, often not enough. I own two sets of metric combination open/box wrenches and one set of "gear wrenches" the gear wrenches could have been 6 point and it wouldn't bother me but they are sold as 12 pointers. I love tools but I also have other things in my budget so I can't see a reason to spend on two sets of sockets and 4 sets of wrenches. Since that is where my limit stands, I chose the more versatile wrenches/sockets. Yes, the 12 pointers might be more likely to strip a bolt but if they do then there was something else wrong in the first place. Either too much torque on the bolt when installing it or not enough lubricant taking it off. I can't remember a single time that I stripped a bolt using the box end of a 12 point wrench so I am not (yet) in a rush to go out and buy 6 pointers. I can remember multiple times putting enough force through a 12 point wrench to shear off the bolt head, that sucks and often hurts

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5. JimVonBaden, Jun 29, 2010 #5

   JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid!

   Joined: Feb 11, 2005 Oddometer: 102,139 Location: Alexandria, VA

   For me, 6-point sockets are always better on a good bolt. If I find a screwed up bolt/nut sometimes a 12-point will work better, though more likely to strip. For wrenches, I mostly prefer a 12 point because I am always working in limited space, and a 6-point wrench often wont allow much turn before resetting. Jim

   #5
6. P B G, Jun 29, 2010 #6

   P B G Long timer

   Joined: Mar 7, 2008 Oddometer: 10,004 Location: Greater Chicago

   It's a question of how much torque application you will use and the condition of the hardware. Most of the time 12 point are fine for box end wrench application. If you are having trouble turning it with the wrench apply oil and switch to 6 point sockets. 6 point box ends and crows foot are the last line for tough bolts in tight places. I have hardly ever needed them. 12 point are suitable if you use sense. When absolutely necessary ill break with 6

   #6
7. the kaz, Jun 29, 2010 #7

   the kaz has become "FERAL"

   Joined: Feb 5, 2007 Oddometer: 1,767 Location: West Coast EH.....

   After 20+ years spinning wrenches for a career I have NO IDEA why 12points are still more common ? I only use a 12 if there is no other way.

   #7 mslim likes this.
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8. Chuckracer, Jun 29, 2010 #8

   Chuckracer Jerkus Maximus

   Joined: Aug 26, 2007 Oddometer: 12,458 Location: Fayetteville NC

   All the above, plus it kinda depends on what you are working on, too. Old rusted POS cars and trucks, 6 point, definitely. Soft aluminum, clean pretty motorcycle parts? 6 point. Otherwise 12's are fine.

   #8
9. The Metric System, Jun 29, 2010 #9

   The Metric System You rode a what to where?

   Joined: Oct 17, 2006 Oddometer: 2,635 Location: Western NC

   JimVonBaden said:

   If I find a screwed up bolt/nut sometimes a 12-point will work better, though more likely to strip.Click to expand...

   Z50R said:

   Yes, the 12 pointers might be more likely to strip a bolt but if they do then there was something else wrong in the first place.Click to expand...

   OK, what am I missing here? I've always understood "stripping a bolt" to mean damaging the threads to the point that it will no longer properly engage another threaded part. This failure mode is distinct from deforming the head so that a drive tool no longer fits correctly. Is this a semantic difference, or are 12 point drivers more likely to actually strip threads? I like 6 point for sockets and Gearwrenches, where you have the benefit of a ratcheting mechanism; but 12 point for fixed wrenches and other similar tools with no ratchet to give flexible positioning. If you have less than 60 degrees of arc to work with it's entirely possible that a fixed 6-point box end will not work easily, or at all.

   #9
10. Z50R, Jun 29, 2010 #10

    Z50R Not lost yet

    Joined: May 11, 2009 Oddometer: 2,360 Location: Boston Mass.

    gmiguy said:

    OK, what am I missing here? I've always understood "stripping a bolt" to mean damaging the threads to the point that it will no longer properly engage another threaded part. This failure mode is distinct from deforming the head so that a drive tool no longer fits correctly. Is this a semantic difference, or are 12 point drivers more likely to actually strip threads?Click to expand...

    We are referring to the idea of making the hexagon on top into a circle. You are also correct, stripping a bolt can refer to stripping threads. The English language needs more technical words.

    #10
11. dr1, Jun 29, 2010 #11

    dr1 Banned

    Joined: Sep 27, 2009 Oddometer: 5

    I have as many 12 pts as 6, more if you consider box end wrenches. I prefer them a lot when working in tight spaces, though honestly, I just grab whatever I find first. I'm not buying this story that much. I've certainly never taken the time to count them, but I feel ive stripped nearly as many bolts with 6's and 12's. I will say rusty fasteners are far more likely to get stuck IN my 6 pt socket once im finished... the claim is more contact with the 6 pt but looking in my terrible worn out 30+ yr old sockets, I'm not seeing it. the contact point is still very small. Now if it starts to deform I can see it still working out where you can get the bolt off (hence how I end up with so many bolts stuck in my 6 pts).. but honestly that scenario is frustrating as hell anyways.. and Id rather strip it and go get the vice grips. :)

    #11
12. marchyman, Jun 29, 2010 #12

    marchyman barely informed

    Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Oddometer: 22,963 Location: SF Bay Area

    Ceri JC said:

    So considering the only real advantage is as a sort of half way house between a 'proper' socket and a stud extractor for when it goes wrong, whats the reason(s) for so many tool manufacturers to provide most of their sockets/spanners as 12, rather than 6 point?Click to expand...

    Because they want their sockets to work with crappy ratchets that require 50˚ movement to work?

    #12
13. GreaseMonkey, Jun 29, 2010 #13

    GreaseMonkey Preshrunk & Cottony

    Joined: Jun 17, 2006 Oddometer: 6,010 Location: The only county in Illinois with no train tracks

    I suspect it is because the sockets are easier (meaning cheaper) to manufacture. If most sockets are swaged, a 12 pt swage will probably last longer and be faster to use than a 6 pt. I suspect this because I've never seen a cheap socket set (you know, the $2.99 ones) have 6 point sockets.

    #13
14. P B G, Jun 29, 2010 #14

    P B G Long timer

    Joined: Mar 7, 2008 Oddometer: 10,004 Location: Greater Chicago

    Z50R said:

    We are referring to the idea of making the hexagon on top into a circle. You are also correct, stripping a bolt can refer to stripping threads. The English language needs more technical words.Click to expand...

    Its also possible to say "rounding off" which is what I typically call it when the points go all roundy. Of course, even a 6 point socket, with any play really only hits the corners. When it turns that fraction of a degree of slop, the flats of the sides catch the corner of the head of the bolt. So even a 6 point really turns off the tips of the 6 points, its not ideal, but that's how it happens. The tighter the socket is to the head of the nut/bolt the more "inwards" on the point the socket sits. To reduce this effect you'll notice the corners of the 6 point socket are typically radiused, this moves the contact point further off the corner of the bolt head and further onto the flats. 12 point does the opposite and only grabs the corners. These things are quite handy, particularly if you have a very good low profile ratchet w/ a lifetime warranty and a breaker bar.

    #14
15. Human Ills, Jun 29, 2010 #15

    Human Ills Useful Idiom

    Joined: Oct 22, 2008 Oddometer: 25,849 Location: South (Dog help me) Bay

    gmiguy said:

    OK, what am I missing here? I've always understood "stripping a bolt" to mean damaging the threads to the point that it will no longer properly engage another threaded part.Click to expand...

    He's talking about rounding the head or the nut, I'm thinking. To answer the question, I think 12pt is prevalent because it's good enough. You can install a fastener and achieve proper clamping force with a 12pt socket and not damage the fastener and you can remove a properly installed fastener without damage. And it works better in tight places.

    #15
16. xroad, Jun 29, 2010 #16

    xroad Been here awhile

    Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Oddometer: 775

    JimVonBaden said:

    For wrenches, I mostly prefer a 12 point because I am always working in limited space, and a 6-point wrench often wont allow much turn before resetting. Jim Click to expand...

    That is why I got the flat 6 point box end wrench with the 15* tilt (not to be confused with offset) head. So, by flipping the wrench the the "other face", I can get a 30* arc swig like the 12 points.

    #16
17. C Squared, Jun 29, 2010 #17

    C Squared Now without TURBO! Supporter

    Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Oddometer: 13,663 Location: FDL WI.

    P B G said:

    So even a 6 point really turns off the tips of the 6 points, its not ideal, but that's how it happens.Click to expand...

    That is when the "flank drive" Snap -On comes into play It is expensive and it works That said, I have craftsman and SK and Snappy, and , and , and..... Mostly Craftsman...I bought a lot of it in HS and College 25 years ago. Still buying stuff today! Many brands.

    #17
18. Flashmo, Jun 29, 2010 #18

    Flashmo Whatever...

    Joined: Dec 21, 2008 Oddometer: 2,689 Location: Vagabond Hippie

    C Squared said:

    I only grab a 12 pt if I need it for the fastener... 6 pt is always a better choice I assume the 12 pt is cheaper etc. is probably spot on. The only reason to NEED the 12 pt for rotation is if you are using a breaker bar. Ratchet drives tend to negate this idea.Click to expand...

    +1

    #18
19. Pike Bishop, Jun 30, 2010 #19

    Pike Bishop Pull Down the Ponzi.

    Joined: Nov 8, 2008 Oddometer: 14,627 Location: Your Back Yard

    If you're in a tight spot where you can't swing the wrench very far, a 12-point wrench can mean the difference between getting the fastener out and losing your mind.

    #19
20. Ceri JC, Jun 30, 2010 #20

    Ceri JC UK GSer

    Joined: Sep 14, 2009 Oddometer: 2,462 Location: All over, usually Wales or England

    Z50R said:

    We are referring to the idea of making the hexagon on top into a circle. You are also correct, stripping a bolt can refer to stripping threads. The English language needs more technical words.Click to expand...

    +1. I refer to this as "splashing" as a particularly mangled bolt head, with edges consisting solely of curves can look like a splash of water frozen in time.

    #20

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