Did Something Change? :: HUMANKIND™ General Discussions

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View Stats: Global Achievements HUMANKIND™ > General Discussions > Topic Details Red Paradox View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 12:28am Did something change? There's a few things that just don't feel right with the game compared to beta and launch? here's just a few things that just don't feel right anymore:-District production costs: It feels like an unfair scaling for districts now, like I can't balance it out unless you go food or production cultures early. If I can't then I fall way too behind as all the AI seem to be fine with starting wars etc. it almost forces a tall empire mentality where the less you have to build the better-War: while there's been some QOL with continuing a war to destroy is nice, the AI always know the right time to attack, whether you have units or not, in civ when someone declares war it more of just an annoyance because it would end up being nothing, where here "I have everything I need to do one attack to win" and this circles back to districts. I have to build my districts to get the production or food I need to even think about making units, while for some reason the AI are able to make stable district production as well as making units.there's some things that didn't change, that needed answers.-Early influence gains: you get one building. One. I just don't understand how to get those era points early on, hell even later, this needed an answer because yet again, the AI have an answer especially in higher difficulties with the deliberate cheating, so you get potentially game ending osmosis events so often that you just straight up lose the city and outposts to the AI.-The infamous mid game slog: with everything I mentioned adds to this, it was a problem with civ, it's a bigger problem with humankind, and it happens sooner. There isn't a one more turn itch anymore, I just up and go "I'm not having fun, I'm retiring this game"All this is sad for me, I really do like humankind but it just feels off to play. Nothing jells together anymore and that feeling of first playing it just isn't there, while the persona element is amazing, the game concept is too, but somethings gone wrong. < > Showing 1-15 of 19 comments Dorok View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 1:51am There's been a lot of change, I'm a bit surprise you can remind all details of your plays at release, but it's certain that you can't play as you was playing at release and you didn't even quoted the biggest changes.Most changes are serious improvements, it's a bit sad you throw it to trash and don't try adapt.Districts:Yeah you could chain build districts after districts without bother, now it's no more unleashed and without any control. You feel it bad, but it's a major change improvement of the game and in my opinion it didn't go far enough. This change not only require more thinking on districts choices, but also on territories attachment choices. And if increase fast number of towns was always strong, it's now even more stronger because of districts building changes. First era, rush to 3 towns at minimum, only few cultures will benefit of avoiding it, and only a few can rush to 4 towns during first era.Wars:I don't see what you mean. I never lost wars. But yeah AI avoid as much than possible declare war to player or they estimate have a wide advantage (they don't necessary have), that's different between AIs. There's probably here a missing player option but that's stuff for when the game will be a lot more polished, cleaned, tuned and balanced.Early influence gains:I don't remind clear changes on that but that now AIs put a lot more care and time to collect fame, but it's more apparent past first era because in first era they was doing it already in older game versions. But that's possible challenge AIs since first era, some cultures will allow it better, all should do an ok job in first era, but Phoenicians and Hittites that I feel crap and alway skip now. Playing last difficulty was easy, now mainly because of AI finally playing for fame, at last difficulty you can't do anything and hope win by fame.As I don't understand your problem here, I can't try help.The infamous mid game slog:Sorry to hear that, I don't suffer of it, but I don't see how I can help you on that. It's even a bit surprising because many comments agree that game can be rather fun at least inn first 3 eras, now it's eventually first 4. I feel your are missing strategy plans, so either you play at too low difficulty for your level of knowledge, either you gave up dig the game and find good strategies. Last edited by Dorok; 27 Mar, 2022 @ 1:59am #1 knighttemplar1960 View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 6:05am The devs did change district production costs. They scaled them and made them more expensive because builder cultures were very OP at release and even after the first couple of patches. This has an effect of making each game you play the same since you can only build a certain number of districts before the throttling mechanism kicks in and it is no longer cost effective to build new districts. I think the problem is the tile exploit system and I suspect that there is no way to balance that.Production cultures and science cultures are still the way to go as food and money cultures still scale too hard to keep up.As far as war goes. The vast majority of complaints I hear are about the war support and the forced surrender system, which the devs recently stated they will not be changing except for a few minor tweaks. You MAY be able to continue a war or reject a forced surrender in the future but the devs have said that there will be a cost to do so. If they continue their current pattern the cost of continuing will likely be worse than what currently happens.The other issue that comes up with war is the AI's simultaneous moves and being locked out of a battle with other of your units if they start outside reinforcement range. This forces you to move your stacks one tile at a time to make sure that they stay in reinforcement range. This slows the game down greatly.Multiplayer is also still very broken as you can't assist an ally with a war since battles are only 1 player vs 1 player. Last edited by knighttemplar1960; 27 Mar, 2022 @ 6:06am #2 Dorok View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 9:20am Money scaling and scaling too hard? Money, Food, Builder, Science, that's all? :-)For not being cost effective to build districts, it's not meaning much, it's always been non sense to just build districts and ignore infrastructures. It's not producing units that will replace build districts and build actions is quickly limited. #3 knighttemplar1960 View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 11:49am Hard is the wrong word. Its not cost effective or, there are better options. That's a balance issue that the devs haven't, can't, or aren't willing to address.In any case it has the effect of narrowing choices, play styles, and variability which makes each play through too similar to previous ones. It becomes boring because the most effective option is to do the same things each game. #4 Red Paradox View Profile View Posts 27 Mar, 2022 @ 2:30pm The thing is, the scaling production hurts a lot compared to early on in HK's life cycle, it's not about ignoring infrastructure, you need production and food to stand a chance in making units AND infrastructure. Sure it makes production cultures a lot better, but before it was a choice, now I feel I have to pick them early, which defeats the purpose of new games of experimenting with different cultures. My thoughts are sure make a scaling, but make it between era or something #5 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 6:51am

Originally posted by knighttemplar1960:Hard is the wrong word. Its not cost effective or, there are better options.

Build what? I already listed all cases, there's no choice to replace districts.

Originally posted by knighttemplar1960:That's a balance issue that the devs haven't, can't, or aren't willing to address.

But how you present it is the game changes break balance when in fact it's a better balance step compared to older version.

Originally posted by knighttemplar1960:In any case it has the effect of narrowing choices, play styles, and variability which makes each play through too similar to previous ones. It becomes boring because the most effective option is to do the same things each game.

It narrows for you because you only use building focus strategies, so then perhaps the building relative nerf from increased diminishing return lower building choices. Overall it narrows nothing.For having no diminishing return, that's a totally different matter, building always had one but previously too small. Design a full game without any diminishing return is another affair. #6 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:01am

Originally posted by Red Paradox:The thing is, the scaling production hurts a lot compared to early on in HK's life cycle, it's not about ignoring infrastructure, you need production and food to stand a chance in making units AND infrastructure. Sure it makes production cultures a lot better, but before it was a choice, now I feel I have to pick them early, which defeats the purpose of new games of experimenting with different cultures.

It's a wrong feeling. But I'm not ready for one more arguing on that, it's up to dev to improve a lot the game learning curve and game feedback to player.So I'll just stick to those facts:- I won many plays, last difficulty, without using any single production cultures and starting dominate since first era. So I can guarantee you that you are forced to nothing.- Last play, no builder culture and just one AI town capture and no New World, it's ended at 5/6 of max turns with 32K+ fame. Same play, 24K before last era and 4/6 turns. It's not just a matter of amount but also a matter of speed so it's complicate, but I'd be curious see you do better with some chaining production cultures.- So for using multiple production cultures in my play, they aren't my most dominating plays.- For some builder+science combo being OP compared to different cultures set, I never got any clear example and explanation of such combo, so I couldn't try and compare.EDIT:But ok without really have done it well, I can imagine that a play with mostly builder and science cultures is stronger.But also some Military/Expansionist plays should be ultra dangerous for all opponents too, but I haven't done it since a long long time, AIs are too weak for wars so it's mildly fun. Last edited by Dorok; 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:11am #7 Spacesuit Spiff View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:32am Ah yes the classic dorok "I've won on the hardest difficulty so therefore the game is totally balanced and everybody else is bad."The scaling district cost pushes you really hard to go production. At the beginning, even taking some resources or a juicy ideally-placed farmers quarter will drive up the cost of makers quarters and effectively kill all momentum. Going hard on production is the only way to ride the curve, if any other strategy works it's because you're exploiting braindead AIs. It's not a remotely interesting system.Interestingly, some rebalance mods do a good job fixing the problem. Increasing pop yields and turning down insane money cost inflation makes the other affinities feel good to play. IMO the reason this isn't the case in the basegame is that a significant chunk of the playerbase is too comfortable with production being the only thing that matters (like it was in ES2). They likely complained too much during the opendevs, so money and food got nerfed into the ground. #8 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:47am

Originally posted by Spacesuit Spiff:Ah yes the classic dorok "I've won on the hardest difficulty so therefore the game is totally balanced and everybody else is bad."

Classic Spacesuit lies. Shame on you.I was clear, the facts I quoted proved it wasn't forced to play like the player was quoting and you have the guts to repeat the same error, lol.For balances, I stop bother argue on that. But still, numbers are numbers, where are those brilliant fame numbers at last difficulty and with chaining production cultures?If you can't provide them where are balances broken from chaining production cultures.For some Builder+Science combo I'm much more ready to agree that it's probably superior, not that it's forced.EDIT:For accusing players, I started the post with that for a reason, I quote myself:"it's up to dev to improve a lot the game learning curve and game feedback to player."So your attempt to push me in the side of being against players is a lame pathetic manipulation, bored of manipulation people like you. Last edited by Dorok; 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:53am #9 Blackadar View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:52am

Originally posted by Spacesuit Spiff:Ah yes the classic dorok "I've won on the hardest difficulty so therefore the game is totally balanced and everybody else is bad.The scaling district cost pushes you really hard to go production. At the beginning, even taking some resources or a juicy ideally-placed farmers quarter will drive up the cost of makers quarters and effectively kill all momentum. Going hard on production is the only way to ride the curve, if any other strategy works it's because you're exploiting braindead AIs. It's not a remotely interesting system.Interestingly, some rebalance mods do a good job fixing the problem. Increasing pop yields and turning down insane money cost inflation makes the other affinities feel good to play. IMO the reason this isn't the case in the basegame is that a significant chunk of the playerbase is too comfortable with production being the only thing that matters (like it was in ES2). They likely complained too much during the opendevs, so money and food got nerfed into the ground.

It makes for a really welcoming forum, doesn't it?You either go prod or you get f-d in the game. Of course, that's not an unusual complaint for most 4X games but trying to argue that it doesn't happen in HK is like trying to argue the sky isn't blue. #10 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:55am

Originally posted by Blackadar:You either go prod or you get f-d in the game.

In MP perhaps, in SP that's false and I mean at last difficulty. Last edited by Dorok; 28 Mar, 2022 @ 7:55am #11 knighttemplar1960 View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 11:10am

Originally posted by Dorok:It narrows for you because you only use building focus strategies, so then perhaps the building relative nerf from increased diminishing return lower building choices. Overall it narrows nothing.For having no diminishing return, that's a totally different matter, building always had one but previously too small. Design a full game without any diminishing return is another affair.

I've tried many different strategies, thank you very much. You need to stop making assumptions. Have you forgotten that I was the person that told you about the all seafaring strategy and how well it actually works?If you were actually correct about Egypt being a poor first culture can you explain why the devs keep nerfing it?Its a builder culture. It got the builder nerf.The markabata originally took one horse resource to create. The next major patch it required 2 horses. Now it takes 2 horses and a copper just like the chariot. By the time you can get enough resources to build it you are almost out of the Ancient era.

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by Blackadar:You either go prod or you get f-d in the game.

In MP perhaps, in SP that's false and I mean at last difficulty.

That's because you play on endless. Endless is 4 times easier than Fast speed (which the game launched with). Endless build costs are increased and it takes takes more turns to build things but the units still move at the same speed which gives you 4 times the number of moves per turn equivalent which also lets you grab 4 times the curiosities. The devs may have finally realized this and that may be the reason people are complaining about fewer curiosities spawning after the neolithic. #12 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 12:19pm Fast?I don't play web games finished in 1H. The game is zero interest for me at fast pace, so I won't bother argue one second on this pace.But then, be clear that your comment on "impossible" strategies are ONLY for fast pace.Obviously you can't affirm this for Normal I beat some times at last difficulty and no builder culture.For dev nerf on Egypt:- For the increased diminishing return it's a global change not related to Egypt nor even builder cultures, and for sure it was a good change, and even in my opinion too small. No Egypt nerf here.- The EU? no way related to Egypt, the standard chariot requires 2 horses too, not an Egypt nerf, a global nerf. No Egypt nerf here. #13 knighttemplar1960 View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 1:11pm

Originally posted by Dorok:Fast?I don't play web games finished in 1H. The game is zero interest for me at fast pace, so I won't bother argue one second on this pace.But then, be clear that your comment on "impossible" strategies are ONLY for fast pace.Obviously you can't affirm this for Normal I beat some times at last difficulty and no builder culture.For dev nerf on Egypt:- For the increased diminishing return it's a global change not related to Egypt nor even builder cultures, and for sure it was a good change, and even in my opinion too small. No Egypt nerf here.- The EU? no way related to Egypt, the standard chariot requires 2 horses too, not an Egypt nerf, a global nerf. No Egypt nerf here.

I've tried games on other speeds too. Playing on endless is why some people complain about the game getting to be a click end turn fest and becoming boring.The cultures still aren't balanced. There are certain culture combinations that are simply more effective at winning a game. The game advertised that you would be able to tell your own story. Being locked out of a particular culture because another player or AI all ready took it runs counter to that, particularly when you remember that many cultures were very similar to others or actually split off from an existing culture.The more turns you can move units the easier the game. The more turns you can move units the more effective military cultures are (and the more stuff you can ransack). The more turns you have before the game ends the more grievances you can accumulate. This is one of the reasons that war support and forced surrender as they currently are, are broken. #14 Dorok View Profile View Posts 28 Mar, 2022 @ 1:28pm The arguing on balances is too complex, that it can be improved, sure, and some cultures are crap in my opinion, and Faith benefits would worth be boosted somehow, and many more. But anyway it will always be improvable. I had quit this arguing.But I can't accept comments arguing that t's impossible play (SP) without a serious focus on builder cultures, My plays prove it's plain wrong, at least at Normal and Endless. That nobody in the world can do that, I'd be surprised its right, but anyway, behind this there's a serious problem of learning curve and feedback to player,For SP there's no need of perfect balances, it's like RPG, some classes are better than others, and some builds are better than others, but still all classes are playable and plenty builds are playable. So yeah some chains of cultures are better and what? It's unavoidable when there's some building involved.For your arguing attempt to pretend I only play an easy mode, it's been already discarded, I did some plays at Normal pace and last difficulty, never lost any, and I don't like use builder cultures. For faster paces, I'm not interested, but again in any "impossible" comment take care quote it's only at fast pace. Last edited by Dorok; 28 Mar, 2022 @ 1:30pm #15 < > Showing 1-15 of 19 comments Per page: 1530 50 HUMANKIND™ > General Discussions > Topic Details Date Posted: 27 Mar, 2022 @ 12:28amPosts: 19 Discussions Rules and Guidelines

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