Historical Question About Cap And Ball - CAS City
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Historical question about cap and ball
Started by Flatlander55, March 04, 2016, 07:47:04 PM
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March 04, 2016, 07:47:04 PM Hello all, when roughly did most cap and ball pistols become replaced with metallic cartridge guns? It seems that while the 1873 Colt came out that year, there would be no way possible that suddenly every gunslinger, outlaw, and lawman had one. I get cartridge conversions of Colt open tops and Remington's were available but the quantity also seems lacking. It is hard to find outlaws/gunfighters that used cap and ball pistols exclusively, not the Peacemaker, even if they were killed in the 1860s or before that gun was introduced. Mass production is great but if every single other commodity took years to travel westward, guns, even though critical tools, should have as well. I have the feeling dime novels and Hollywood had a lot to do with it. Somehow metallic cartridges for pistols and lever actions are outrageously romantic. What say you? hellgate
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March 04, 2016, 09:56:49 PM The entire production of 1873 Peacemakers went to the military for the first several years. The only source of them would be from deserters or black market guns listed as "lost" and likely gone to criminals or not. The cap & ball revolvers were quite affordable as war surplus so they and various conversions were used for many years after the advent of the Peacemaker. The peacemaker was not widely used by the public until well into the 1870s-1880s. Most shooters were quite familiar with"powder & ball" so the percussion arms were the most common revolvers until the late 1870s. "Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada BillSince I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!SASS#3302LREGULATORRUCAS#58Wolverton Mt. PeacekeepersSCORRSDGB#29NRA LifeCASer since 1992 Galloway
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March 04, 2016, 11:28:43 PM I'm not sure they were ever replaced but rather new people would buy up new models as time went on. Imagine a 40 year old farmer living outside of town working hard to keep his family fed. He's never needed a handgun, but feels safe knowing he has a cleaned, oiled and loaded 1860 army in the house if he ever does. Why would he need to upgrade to a SAA and what practical advantage would it offer? Now a imagine a 16 year old boy being handed his wages in dodge city at the end of a cattle drive. He's looking forward to a night on the town with his friends and happens to see a nickel 1875 remington in a glass counter. Fox Creek Kid
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March 04, 2016, 11:29:00 PM A good analogy is the automobile replacing the horse. It was a gradual transition despite Hollywood BS. St. George
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March 04, 2016, 11:47:36 PM Most of the money that 16-year-old boy had was just spent on a bath, a shave, a new pair of trousers and a new shirt (maybe two) and if much was left - new boots.The rest he'd spend with his pals on whisky and women.That new 1875 Remington was going to sit in that case a good long while...Truth is, the percussions and cartridge conversions lasted a 'long' time - especially when there seemed to be no pressing need for a new revolver, when the conversions were so cheap.Later on, when the strength of the top strap was evident, and when Army Contracts didn't have a stranglehold on the Single Action Army production, the Model 1873s started to hit civilian sales, and by the time they did, that same boy was older and making more money...Scouts Out! "It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..."
Flatlander55
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March 05, 2016, 06:55:30 AM Great responses everybody. Thanks! Buffalo Creek Law Dog
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March 05, 2016, 09:25:52 AM The 7th Cavalry at Ft Abraham Lincoln, received the 1873 Colts in the spring of 1874 before they went on the Black Hills Expedition. Wild Bill was still using cap and ball in 1876. SASS 66621BOLD 678AFS 43NFAABPA Trailrider
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March 05, 2016, 10:11:21 AM Not only these factors, but if a cowboy/gunfighter/whoever felt he really need a cartridge revolver, it might be cheaper to have his cap-n-ball converted to metallic cartridges. There were a number of gunsmiths willing and capable of doing the job. Ride to the sound of the guns, but watch out for bushwhackers! Godspeed to all in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!Your obedient servant,Trailrider,Bvt. Lt. Col. Commanding,Southern DistrictDept. of the Platte, GAF Galloway
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March 05, 2016, 11:23:22 AM I doubt a bath shave and trousers would cost most his wages. Colt only made 35000 saa for the cavalry and 20000 large frame conversions fyi. Hardly a stranglehold. Sgt Scott
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March 05, 2016, 12:16:07 PM A real good example of new gun adoption would be the AR style rifle. Think about how long they have been available and how long they have been super desirable. People are the same today as yesteryear and while the military rifle is all the rage today not everyone goes out and trades everything they have just to get the latest model. People whose life depended on them may likely have had the latest and greatest as soon as possible. And, just like today, with all the advertising, anyone buying for the first time will probably choose the newest thing available. Also, compare the automatic craze with the revolver. There are still plenty of revolvers being sold today. Happy trails... 14,000 miles, 7 states, 3 years St. George
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March 05, 2016, 01:09:13 PM FYI...A seasoned hand made less than $40, and that was after the heyday of the percussion era.Cowboys wore their gear out - boots, saddles, clothing - everything wore out and needed replacement, so replacing everything affordable was his first priority, since those were his tools of the trade - 'not' whatever new revolver came down the pike.These times weren't the times of movies and the 'John Ford Reference Library'.Colt's production didn't happen all at once, either - and what revolvers that were earmarked for civilian sales got to those same civilians slowly - they didn't get drop-shipped to the Frontier West, they made their way there via jobbers and dealers - each getting their cut - so nothing happened overnight.The Army had Colt's priority, no matter 'what' you might think - Colt knew which side their bread was buttered on, then as now - and long-term military contracts have been the lifeblood for them.For the average cowboy, his saddle gun was most valuable, since he could 'probably' hit something with that, rather than his revolver, and since ammunition cost money he didn't have - revolver practice wasn't something many of them did.Scouts Out! "It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..." Lefty Dude
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March 05, 2016, 01:20:09 PM Powder, ball & caps were available at the time every where. Not so with cartridges. C&B lasted well in to the 1920's in some parts of the country. Bishop Creek
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March 05, 2016, 01:53:52 PM Texas outlaw-gunfighter John Wesley Hardin used cap and ball revolvers during most of his career, though he did shoot a sheriff with a Smith & Wesson American cartridge revolver in the early 1870s and made mention of once shooting an 1873 Colt . When Hardin was arrested in 1877, he was carrying a Colt 1860 Army .44 cap and ball revolver. Fox Creek Kid
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March 05, 2016, 02:23:23 PM In the Remington 1877 catalog .44 Henry was $24 per K. That was quite a drop from the initial cost of $30 to $40 during and after the war until the Panic of 1873 destroyed the economy. That date is a milepost. $24 in 1877 = approx. $540 adjusted for inflation, which is tricky due to buying 'power'. So, if a waddy made $40 per mo., then $24 was a Helluva chunk out of his monthly pay. New boots in Kansas started at about $8.00 for a cheap pair. Of course, we have yet to see a Texan that had plain boots. 
I could see an average waddy buying a 50 rd. box or two of ammo, IF he even owned a ctg. pistol, for the trip home. As well, note that some waddies in later years sold their horses in the north after a trail drive & took the train back south. More expensive yes, but faster and safer. It was a lot smarter to get back to your sweetheart in Texas than sate your desires on a syphilitic 'soiled dove' in Kansas in an age when a venereal disease was the kiss of death. Bishop Creek
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March 05, 2016, 03:27:03 PM Don't know if it is true or not, but once read (think it was on the "official" Colt Forum) that some historians believe that Doc Holiday was armed with an 1851 Navy converted to .38 rim-fire at the fight at the OK Corral in 1881. It is known that he also had an 1873 model Colt, but that was after his Tombstone days.Buffalo Bill Cody also famously carried a .44 Remington cap and ball revolver during his Indian scouting days on the Plains. Flatlander55
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March 05, 2016, 07:50:18 PM I am really enjoying this discussion, the history dweeb in me continues to grow. Thoughtful, intellectual conversations are awesome. Hollywood and books really do tell different stories. Bishop Creek
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March 05, 2016, 08:59:31 PM Just for reference; although Wild Bill Hickok used 1851 Colt Navy cap and ball revolvers throughout his "gunfighter" period in the Old West, according to Hickok historian and biographer Joseph G. Rosa, when Hickok was shot and killed in Deadwood in 1876, they examined his body, and the only gun they found on him was a Smith & Wesson "Old Army" .32 rim-fire in a coat pocket.(not Hickok's pistol, this S&W Old Army is from my personal collection):
Flatlander55
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March 06, 2016, 06:26:12 AM Interesting stuff. I'm usually unsure of what to believe, as the newspapers of the day (and today) tended to sensationalize their stories with dramatic flair to sell more. If one got killed, it easily turned into four, etc etc. I forgot where I read it but there was a newspaper article from when there was a shootout and before dying one of the men had an awesome quote, apparently staying cool as a cucumber. Something to the extent of avenge me, make a posse and hunt the whole gang down, take care of my wife, etc....Its possible people said that kind of thing, sure, but I highly doubt it was that common. That is interesting about John W. Hardin and the 1860. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. So for those who carried cap and ball revolvers in the late 1860s whether farmer or outlaw/lawman/gunfighter/vigilante/bounty hunter, how would you carry extra ammunition? You have your holster, maybe a cap pouch, but loose powder and balls, or paper cartridges? I've never read anything on that. If on horseback, a Colt should have 5 shots typically, Remington being a wee bit safer with hammer notches that really work but things do get jolted around, caps could come loose, accidental discharge, etc.Also, how did people keep their powder dry? It would seem that a leather bag can only do so much and once again I haven't read anything on flasks being carried for revolvers. Flatlander55
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March 06, 2016, 06:43:41 AM And, any good first-person books written about the people who were using cap and ball revolvers for their primary "work"? (Whatever that may mean). I am especially interested in the Civil War guerilla fighters, and the reconstruction period of the East. There isn't much I could find, but I know there were bad people over here too and good people who found them, it just wasn't as romanticised. The Wild East just doesn't roll off the tongue all that well and the romanticized vision of a lawless frontier doesn't exist. It seems everything is focused only on the West, which obviously I am also fascinated by but in a different way. Probable because there is soooo much information on it I can just use Google and learn more. St. George
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March 06, 2016, 10:56:10 AM A 'lot' more of your questions can be best answered in the 'back pages' of the 'Historical Society' forum.All have been well-covered long before, so take a look.Scouts Out! "It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..." Print Go Up Pages1 2 3 4 User actions - Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
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