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- Start date Start date Nov 17, 2015
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Urdu Hi, A carnivore is an animal that eats meat... Is there any English word for the humans that eat meat? Can "carnivore" be used for the humans that eat meat? Thanks!!bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). One more often hears, "He's carnivorous." Also, by implication, "He's omnivorous but she's a vegetarian."Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British English An animal that eats meat is a carnivore. A man is an animal. A man who eats meat is a ..........shop-englishx
Banned
UrduAndygc said: An animal that eats meat is a carnivore. A man is an animal. A man who eats meat is a .......... Click to expand...What do you want to say, Andyc?
natkretep
Moderato con anima (English Only)
Singapore English (Singapore/UK), basic Chinese Context is very important. In many English-speaking contexts, speakers often eat a mix of plant and animal products (ie are omnivores, as bennymix indicated). In this context, if you say someone is a carnivore, it means they love to eat meat and eat more or it than other people. This is the way I tend to understand carnivore as applied to humans. Therefore, even though I like my chicken, pork, beef and lamb, I eat it in moderate amounts and wouldn't call myself a carnivore. In some South Asian contexts, vegetarianism is the norm. I'd suggest meat eater as the most appropriate term in this context. Mmanfy
Senior Member
Singapore German - AustriaAndygc said: An animal that eats meat is a carnivore. A man is an animal. A man who eats meat is a .......... Click to expand......a happy man? (also known as felix homo sapiens sapiens)
Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British Englishshop-englishx said: What do you want to say, Andyc? Click to expand...That you had already answered your own question by saying that an animal that eats meat is a carnivore.
manfy said: Also, in common language you usually don't call humans animals Click to expand...I wouldn't say that. It's not that long ago that Millwall Football Club fans were described as animals. However, when discussing concepts such as being a carnivore, it's perfectly normal to classify man as an animal.
bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). The effort to use a scientific and logical approach to prove "Man is a carnivore" is going to misfire badly. Regarding Carnivore, Oxford lists as "informal" (1.2) the meaning, for a person, "not a vegetarian", but the scientific definition is given thus. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/carnivore 1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora. EXAMPLE SENTENCE Most drumming mammals are rodents, but drumming has also been described in carnivores, deer, rabbits, elephant shrews and marsupials. =============== Humans and primates are NOT in this order. For illustration look at any natural history page, e.g. ttp://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=493.172 [Three types mentioned] Dog-like carnivorans Aquatic carnivorans Cat-like carnivorans [Defining characteristic] Carnassial teeth: the defining feature of members of the Order Carnivora [...] adapted to shear flesh. ==== In scientific terms, then, a 'carnivore' is something in the order Carnivora. The order of primates is different. From the primates page: Our exhibit is divided into four sections following the familial relations described by Purvis (1995):- Suborder Strepsirhini � lemurs, aye aye, bush babies, lorises.
- Suborder Haplorhini
- New World Monkeys � marmosets, howler monkeys, spider monkeys.
- Old World Monkeys � guenons, macaques, baboons, langurs.
- Apes � gibbons, orang utans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and humans.
Andygc said: An animal that eats meat is a carnivore. A man is an animal. A man who eats meat is a .......... Click to expand...Edited to reduce font size. Cagey, moderator. Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British English benny, I'm just referring to the logic of normal people's English. The second definition in Collins in the Wordreference dictionary will do for me:any other animal or any plant that feeds on animals Click to expand...Man is not of the order "Carnivora", but is certainly an animal and, in most cases, eats meat. Fortunately, he also eats fish because your rather lengthy post doesn't change the price of it.
manfy
Senior Member
Singapore German - Austria I agree with Andy. You should not mix up the taxonomical term Carnivora and the general word carnivore (the latter is also used in science as classification, just in a different way than the order Carnivora). I can't give you the exact reason for the existence of both terms because I'm not a biologist, but I guess the general term 'carnivore' didn't fit well into the very strict scientific classification system of organisms.bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). To cite Collins, which gives 'normal people's' careful and scientific usage- informal an aggressively ambitious person [from the same webpage, another dictionary]
Packard
Senior Member
USA, English My niece is a vegan. I'm a meat eater, though I don't eat any seafood. I think in the vernacular "meat eater" is the term I would use. "Omnivore" and "carnivore" sound too much like a scientist is speaking.Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British English benny, I really don't understand your point. You cite Collins, but that is the first definition - the technical one. I cited the second definition, which is the extended usage applied by both scientists and laymen. A meat-eater is carnivorous, whether it's a dog, a lion, a pig, a plant, or a man. The anatomy of man's gut compared with Carnivora or Herbivora is completely irrelevant. You'll find that not a lot of vegetables grow in the lands of the Inuit, and they seem to do quite well on meat, blubber and fish for much of the year. What was the question?shop-englishx said: Can "carnivore" be used for the humans that eat meat? Click to expand...Answer "Yes".
sdgraham
Senior Member
Oregon, USA USA English Indeed. One of my favorite restaurants is The Carnivore, outside of Nairobi, where incredible quantities of meat (legs of lamb and pork, ostrich, rumps of beef, sirloins, racks of lamb, spare ribs, sausages, chicken wings, skewered kidneys, even crocodile) are delivered via skewers to diners. Carnivore, of course, refers to the clientele.Parla
Member Emeritus
New York City English - US "Carnivore" could be used to label humans only if they eat meat exclusively. I have never seen the word used for humans, nor do I know any humans who eat nothing but meat.Packard
Senior Member
USA, English I think "meat eater" is the nearest antonym to "vegetarian" that we have in English. "herbivorous" and "carnivorous" are biological terms and would not be used in this context.Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British EnglishParla said: "Carnivore" could be used to label humans only if they eat meat exclusively. I have never seen the word used for humans, nor do I know any humans who eat nothing but meat. Click to expand...Sorry, Parla, but usage does not support you. This from Oxford online:
informal A person who is not a vegetarian. "Does the hands-on father who cooks for three vegetarians and three carnivores feel his upbringing is paying off?" "I used to love rotisserie, but I think I overdid it when I converted from a vegetarian back to a carnivore." "Theo's offers a wide range of food, catering well for both vegetarians and carnivores." "We honor the food choices of both carnivores and vegetarians alike, and in doing so, hope to open new windows of opportunity for folks to explore." Click to expand...That meaning is not in the Oxford online AE dictionary, but at least one of the examples on the full access site appears to be American. (the fourth one I have quoted)
bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Usage supports Parla in that the dictionaries all prominently give the scientific definition, where the word is for Carnivora, e.g. tigers, cats and dogs. These need and eat LOTS of meat (with the odd exception). At Oxford, as several other dictionaries, the rigorous usage is cited before the informal uses. 1. An animal that feeds on other animals. 1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora. 1.2 Informal A person who is not a vegetarian. In scientific terms, humans, like apes, are omnivores; are omnivorous. The controversies about vegetarianism have given rise to the loose usage you (and Oxford) report--if you eat ANY meat, you're labeled "carnivore". Of course the average, not-scientifically-educated person stretches exact terms; he will call a lemur a monkey, for example. ========================== Parla said, "Carnivore" could be used to label humans only if they eat meat exclusively. I have never seen the word used for humans, nor do I know any humans who eat nothing but meat. Andy responded: Sorry, Parla, but usage does not support you. This from Oxford online: informal A person who is not a vegetarianDale Texas
Senior Member
El Paso, TX (raised PA, ex New Yorker) English USA I've used it deliberately in misuse about myself as a joke, and other native speakers of AE have always taken it as such, and know I mean I much prefer meat not, that I literally mean I don't consume other things, or don't even like other things. "Dale, would you like some salad? "No thanks, I'm a carnivore." (I am REALLY not interested in having a salad at this moment.)bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Cambridge online supports you, Dale: carnivore › an animal that eats meat: Lions and tigers are carnivores. humorous I made mostly vegetarian food but put a couple of meat dishes out for the carnivores (= people who eat meat).Dale Texas said: I've used it deliberately in misuse about myself as a joke, and other native speakers of AE have always taken it as such, and know I mean I much prefer meat not, that I literally mean I don't consume other things, or don't even like other things. "Dale, would you like some salad? "No thanks, I'm a carnivore." (I am REALLY not interested in having a salad at this moment.)Click to expand...
Loob
Senior Member
English UKshop-englishx said: Can "carnivore" be used for the humans that eat meat?... Click to expand...Yes
bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Questioner: About my tough boss. Is this correct usage: "My boss is a carnivore"? Yes! ----- (informal) an aggressively ambitious person http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/carnivoreParla
Member Emeritus
New York City English - US Most of the humans I know are (if we're going to use typically non-human terms for Homo sapiens) omnivores; I'm one of them.Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British English I find it extraordinary that some posters here are claiming that "carnivore" cannot be applied to humans who eat meat. That the first entry in some dictionaries refers to the technical usage is wholly irrelevant. Would you, benny, claim that only the first stated meaning of all other words is the correct one - while at the same time supporting a meaning of "carnivore" that is not in most dictionaries? I'm struggling with your logic. Surely all recorded uses are valid? I don't know about AE usage, but I do know about BE. As Oxford online both states and demonstrates, "carnivore" is used in BE to refer to humans who eat meat. There is no exclusively humorous intent in this usage. It's an informal usage. Oxford online cites 20 examples, of which a couple are tongue in cheek. As usual, I remain disappointed by the inadequacy of the Cambridge online dictionary compared with the Oxford online dictionary, but the difference merely demonstrates the different level of resources put into the task by the two publishing houses. In BE it does not, in my experience, mean "an aggressively ambitious person" and I was surprised that your link referred to Collins as its source. As I've been unable to find any other dictionary that lists this meaning, and particularly as there seems to be no American or Canadian online dictionary supporting it, I'm suprised by this post:bennymix said: Questioner: About my tough boss. Is this correct usage: "My boss is a carnivore"? Yes! ----- (informal) an aggressively ambitious person Click to expand...
velisarius
Senior Member
Greece British English (Sussex)shop-englishx said: Hi, A carnivore is an animal that eats meat... Is there any English word for the humans that eat meat? Can "carnivore" be used for the humans that eat meat? Thanks!! Click to expand...In what sort of context? Where would you be likely to use the word? I also think you need to clarify whether you mean someone who eats various types of food, including meat, or someone who eats an unusually large amount of meat. The lack of context seems to be causing confusion.
natkretep
Moderato con anima (English Only)
Singapore English (Singapore/UK), basic Chinese When used in relation to people, carnivore has two uses: (1) I mentioned the use of carnivore to refer to refer to people who eat excessive amounts of meat earlier. So I might refer to my younger son as a carnivore because he wolfs down more than his fair share of meat at mealtimes. (2) And there is the use to refer to a non-vegetarian, indicated, for example, in the OED:colloq. (freq. humorous or mildly derogatory). In extended use: a person who is not a vegetarian, a meat-eater. Click to expand...I think the second sense is not to be recommended to shopenglishx because it is colloquial, and usually humorous or derogatory. A little bit like how nudists refer to non-nudists as textile-wearers etc. Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
Loob
Senior Member
English UK Shop-englishx, can you tell us why you're looking for a word for human meat-eater?shop-englishx
Banned
UrduLoob said: Shop-englishx, can you tell us why you're looking for a word for human meat-eater? Click to expand...I was NOT looking for a word that applies specifically to human meat-eater... I know it's "Ogre" (A giant who likes to eat human beings) Or simply "man-eater".
velisarius said: who eats various types of food, including meat, or someone who eats an unusually large amount of meat Click to expand...
Barque
Banned
Tamilshop-englishx said: I was NOT looking for a word that applies specifically to human meat-eater... I know it's "Ogre" (A giant who likes to eat human beings) Or simply "man-eater". Click to expand...You were, you know. You're confusing "human meat-eater" with "human-meat eater". Loob meant the former. Ogres, man-eaters and cannibals come under the latter head.
Loob
Senior Member
English UK Yes, Barque's rightbennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Loob, I like Nat's posts on this topic as well. But as to the recommendation: - to describe someone who's not a vegetarian, use "meat-eater", unless you're being humorous or derogatory. I think 'meat eater' has much the same issues. If I eat a fish filet once a month, I'm a 'meat eater'? I think this is very much political. "Vegetarian" or better 'vegan' is a privileged, self-imputed category. The pure ones. Those who fall away, by even a fish-bit, are 'carnivores' or 'meat eaters'. In the US, you (I don't mean Loob) call yourself "white", and anyone even 1/16 "black" is labeled "black". The 'one-drop' rule. 'White' is privileged. BBarque
Banned
Tamil Indian English uses the word "non-vegetarian" (as a noun) for a person who isn't vegetarian, irrespective of how frequently that person eats meat, poultry or fish. I suppose that isn't common in the West, since no one has offered it as an option, though Nat used the term in #26.bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). I think it's an excellent term, and used around here (Ontario, Canada).Barque said: Indian English uses the word "non-vegetarian" (as a noun) for a person who isn't vegetarian, irrespective of how frequently that person eats meat, poultry or fish. I suppose that isn't common in the West, since no one has offered it as an option, though Nat used the term in #26. Click to expand...
velisarius
Senior Member
Greece British English (Sussex) I don't think I would like to be defined in terms of what I am not, especially since I "belong" to the majority in this part of the world who do eat some meat.Barque
Banned
Tamil I see what you mean. But perhaps you feel that way because you're not used to that term? It's such a common term here that I (and probably most others who use it) don't think of the "non" as an indicator that that person's not something (vegetarian in this case), but as an indicator that shows that person is something (a meat-eater). To draw a rough parallel - the word "non-fiction" means something that's not fiction but when I hear that word, the first thought that comes to mind isn't "Something that isn't fiction". It is "something that's true".velisarius
Senior Member
Greece British English (Sussex) Some theologians define God in terms of what He is not, and I'm fine with inanimate objects being "non-fiction" - as a human being, I prefer people not to use words like "non-vegetarian" when talking about me. (I would not mind if I went to India and you used it about me Barque, since there I would stick out like a sore thumb anyway.natkretep
Moderato con anima (English Only)
Singapore English (Singapore/UK), basic Chinese I think I would feel the same way as veli if someone described me as 'non-vegetarian'. About 15% of the population here are Muslim (who follow rules about dishes and cutlery not coming into contact with non-halal food), and canteens often separate the area for returning dishes into the area for 'halal dishes' and 'non-halal dishes'. I've always also thought that was wrong because it gives the impression that Muslims are the majority. TThomas Tompion
Member Emeritus
Southern England English - EnglandParla said: Most of the humans I know are (if we're going to use typically non-human terms for Homo sapiens) omnivores; I'm one of them. Click to expand...If you eat everything, you eat meat. Carnivores are a sub-set of Omnivores, not a separate category.
RM1(SS)
Senior Member
Connecticut English - US (Midwest)bennymix said: Cambridge online supports you, Dale: carnivore › an animal that eats meat: Lions and tigers are carnivores. humorous I made mostly vegetarian food but put a couple of meat dishes out for the carnivores (= people who eat meat). Click to expand...Wait - weren't you the one who was saying that "carnivore" cannot be used to describe people? T
Thomas Tompion
Member Emeritus
Southern England English - EnglandRM1(SS) said: Wait - weren't you the one who was saying that "carnivore" cannot be used to describe people? Click to expand...Maybe in some previous existence. Are you a buddhist?
Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British English This thread is getting to be a bit like a traffic jam on a roundabout with people suddenly realising they've missed their exit. There's ample evidence that the term "carnivore" is used informally (as opposed to humorously or censoriously) in BE to mean a person who eats meat. I won't add to the 4 examples from Oxford online I've already quoted - thus avoiding list-writing, unacceptable use of copyright material, and tedium for forum users. Some people here don't think they'll use it, which is fine. Some people think it's wrong, which, as far as BE is concerned, is wrong, perverse in the face of evidence to the contrary, and unhelpful. I am, of course, only too willing to leave AE speakers to argue the toss to their hearts' content. "Non-vegetarian"? In a country covered in beef cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, geese and turkeys? Lord preserve me!Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British EnglishThomas Tompion said: Maybe in some previous existence. Are you a buddhist? Click to expand...I think RM's comment was aimed at benny, not you, TT.
RM1(SS)
Senior Member
Connecticut English - US (Midwest) Since benny was the one I quoted, yes. TThomas Tompion
Member Emeritus
Southern England English - EnglandRM1(SS) said: Since benny was the one I quoted, yes. Click to expand...Blame the new software. I'm sorry to have started a hare, RM1(SS). I wondered if I'd missed something. Maybe I was a buddhist in a previous existence. I think the context is vital here: A biologist may describe animals as omnivores (everything edible) or carnivores (just meat) or herbivores (just vegetables). These are almost discrete categories - the definitions overlap just occasionally, when a horse (herbivore) eats a slug by mistake. The lay (non-scientist) person might easily, in BE, use these terms in a jocular manner to describe someone who likes steak (carnivore) or a vegan (herbivore). This is by no means a technical use, but like some others I think that it contributes to the pursuit of happiness. Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Hi Andy, I don't really see the AE/BE divide you resort to. I'm quite happy with Oxford online: 1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora. 1.2 informal A person who is not a vegetarian. Similarly, OED as quoted by Nat. colloq. (freq. humorous or mildly derogatory). In extended use: a person who is not a vegetarian, a meat-eater. I have nowhere said that definitions below the first are incorrect or not to be used. But order does reflect (as I recall) priority and commonness. Learners should know that informal or colloquial uses may be objected to at times, but they are free to choose, of course. It is as much BE speakers who have continued to roil the pot. ==============Andygc said: This thread is getting to be a bit like a traffic jam on a roundabout with people suddenly realising they've missed their exit. There's ample evidence that the term "carnivore" is used informally (as opposed to humorously or censoriously) in BE to mean a person who eats meat. I won't add to the 4 examples from Oxford online I've already quoted - thus avoiding list-writing, unacceptable use of copyright material, and tedium for forum users. Some people here don't think they'll use it, which is fine. Some people think it's wrong, which, as far as BE is concerned, is wrong, perverse in the face of evidence to the contrary, and unhelpful. I am, of course, only too willing to leave AE speakers to argue the toss to their hearts' content. "Non-vegetarian"? In a country covered in beef cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, geese and turkeys? Lord preserve me! Click to expand...T
Thomas Tompion
Member Emeritus
Southern England English - England As we now have a recidivist BE-speaker basher on the loose again, this time suggesting, if I've found my way through the maze, that the jocular use of carnivore is unknown in AE, I can't resist sharing this nugget (nuggets can be veggie or meaty) from The Vegetarian Times, a "magazine of great food, good health, and smart living". published by Cruz Bay Publishing in El Segundo, CA. You don't have to compromise flavor and texture as you cut out high-fat animal products. " The restaurant follows through on this philosophy with its " Convert a Carnivore " outreach program. The second Wednesday of every month Millennium offers a 25 percent discount when a diner brings a meat-eating friend to try the food. Millenium is a restaurant in San Francisco.
Andygc
Senior Member
Devon British Englishbennymix said: I have nowhere said that definitions below the first are incorrect or not to be used. Click to expand...I must have misunderstood you.
Parla said: "Carnivore" could be used to label humans only if they eat meat exclusively Click to expand...
Andygc said: Sorry, Parla, but usage does not support you. This from Oxford online: Click to expand...
bennymix said: Usage supports Parla in that the dictionaries all prominently give the scientific definition, where the word is for Carnivora, e.g. tigers, cats and dogs. These need and eat LOTS of meat (with the odd exception). Click to expand...That seemed to me to indicate that I couldn't use "carnivore" except to "label humans only if they eat meat exclusively." That seems to me to be saying that I shouldn't use it to mean "A person who is not a vegetarian", which seems to me to be where you
bennymix said: said that definitions below the first are incorrect or not to be used. Click to expand...So, should I use it to mean somebody who eats meat and vegetables, like any other BE speaker can, or do I follow the advice of Parla, supported by you, that I shouldn't use it in this meaning?
manfy
Senior Member
Singapore German - Austriabennymix said: I'm quite happy with Oxford online: 1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora. 1.2 informal A person who is not a vegetarian. Click to expand...Be careful when using dictionary entries as "conclusive proof" for anything else but orthography! The purpose of dictionaries is to provide correct orthography and the common, current day meaning and usage -- it is not intended to cover every single (and perfectly legitimate!) variation and/or regional use, and it is certainly not intended to explain all details and the science behind it. In this specific case, the entry "1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora." is higly misleading because: A) most readers assume that it means "In zoology only (and all) mammals of the order Carnivora are called carnivores". This assumption is wrong! proof 1: Sharks are not mammals and don't belong to the order Carnivora, but they eat meat and they are classified as carnivores. The same is true for eagles and snakes (most snakes are not mammals). proof 2: Panda bears are mammals and they are in the order of Carnivora, but they are mainly herbivores. Black bears, also mammals and carnivorans, are omnivores - depending on season and food supply. B) The absence of listings besides zoology might make the reader assume that 'carnivore' can only be used in context of zoology. This assumption is wrong because we know that some plants, i.e. organisms outside zoology, hence outside the kingdom Animalia, are carnivorous and classified as carnivores. Thus, this entry 1.1 for the scientific use of 'carnivore' is clearly a (gross) simplification of its real use in science and it's safe to assume that the remaining definitions are not complete and definitive in respect to actual and potential use within the entirety of the English language. Nevertheless, the entries are sufficient for the understanding of the every-day common use of the word in common context. And that's exactly what dictionaries are supposed to do (in my opinion)!
bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Thomas said, As we now have a recidivist BE-speaker basher on the loose again, this time suggesting, if I've found my way through the maze, that the jocular use of carnivore is unknown in AE I had said, I don't really see the AE/BE divide you resort to. I'm quite happy with Oxford online: 1.1 Zoology A mammal of the order Carnivora. 1.2 informal A person who is not a vegetarian. == I endorsed Oxford's descriptions and prescriptions (under 'carnivore') and denied an AE/BE divide on this. Quirky, to say the least, Thomas, that you deduce 'BE basher' from the above. It would be gentlemanly of you to retract your statements.bennymix
Senior Member
Now, Ontario, Canada. California; Princeton, NJ. English (American). Hi Andy, I'm not sure what this is: bennymix said: ↑ said that definitions below the first are incorrect or not to be used. It's not a quotation from me, though presented as such, nor is it an accurate statement of my position as earlier and as summarized freshly in post #45, to which you were putatively responding. It would be conscientious of you to correct your wording and clarify what you infer vs. what I actually said. Thanks.- 1
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