Question About Cleric Prepared Spells - Rules & Game Mechanics

• Rogue
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I'm working on creating a level 1 Life Domain Cleric. Question about the number of spells they can prepare. Wisdom is 16 so the modifier is +3, which to my understanding means I can prepare 3 spells and I have 2 spell slots. I see that Bless and Cure Wounds show as "Always prepared' in the character builder. Does this mean I can only choose 1 more spell to prepare for a total of 3? Or can I choose to prepare 3 other spells in addition to the 2 that are "always prepared"?

Thanks,

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So you can prepare your Cleric Level + Wisdom Modifier. So you would be able to prepare 4 level 1 spells. Bless and Cure Wounds are always prepared as a Life Cleric, so they do not count towards the total.

So you would pick 4 other spells from the Cleric list to have prepared, for a grand total of 6 at 1st level. As you level up its always clr lvl + wis mod, so you would then balance your spells over the different levels as you gain higher level spells.

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• Rogue
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Thanks for the reply! One more question, how did you link those spells in your reply above?

• Rogue
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Domain Spells

Each domain has a list of spells — its domain spells — that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day.

If you have a domain spell that doesn’t appear on the cleric spell list, the spell is nonetheless a cleric spell for you.

Bless and Cure Wounds are your starting domain spells from the Life Domain. As stated above, they don't count against the number of spells you can prepare. You can prepare four (other) spells - not three - since your cleric level adds to how many spells you can prepare:

Preparing and Casting Spells

...

You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

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• Rogue
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Thanks, Looks like my reading skills need some work. I missed a few things there.

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Quote from Jonin >>

Thanks for the reply! One more question, how did you link those spells in your reply above?

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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of

• Rogue
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Thanks again!

• Adventurer
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Quote from InquisitiveCoder >>

Preparing and Casting Spells

...

You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

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• Rogue
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Quote from Hollywood_GM >> That last line...that last line...RAW vs. RAI debate for the ages there. RAW- I'm an 18 Wizard/ 2 Cleric who gets to choose between Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Time Stop and Wish for 9th level spells. Though he would only get 2+Wis Mod spells to prepare between 1-9 lvls of spells because of how this works with multiclass caster. RAI- NO WAY that should work like that. You should only get to prepare 1rst lvl Cleric Spells. Clearly they meant, "The spells must be of a level for which you have cleric spell slots".

Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

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• Adventurer
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"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Which takes us back to the cleric class and it's ruling, thus creating the paradoxical loop in the first place. I was aware of what the RAW for multi-classing spellcasters was when I made my original comment.

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I found it ironic they talked about this exact loop hole having previously existed with Wizard and how they specifically changed the wording in the Wizard class to correct the problem. Yet the wording for Cleric was left much more vague. I understand that was one of the major game designers for 5e so his RAI is quite clear to me now. However that was the argument I was making...RAI did not match RAW.

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• Hero
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Quote from Hollywood_GM >>

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Which takes us back to the cleric class and it's ruling, thus creating the paradoxical loop in the first place. I was aware of what the RAW for multi-classing spellcasters was when I made my original comment.

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I found it ironic they talked about this exact loop hole having previously existed with Wizard and how they specifically changed the wording in the Wizard class to correct the problem. Yet the wording for Cleric was left much more vague. I understand that was one of the major game designers for 5e so his RAI is quite clear to me now. However that was the argument I was making...RAI did not match RAW.

• Adventurer
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Quote from AaronOfBarbaria >>

Quote from Hollywood_GM >>

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class."

Which takes us back to the cleric class and it's ruling, thus creating the paradoxical loop in the first place. I was aware of what the RAW for multi-classing spellcasters was when I made my original comment.

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I found it ironic they talked about this exact loop hole having previously existed with Wizard and how they specifically changed the wording in the Wizard class to correct the problem. Yet the wording for Cleric was left much more vague. I understand that was one of the major game designers for 5e so his RAI is quite clear to me now. However that was the argument I was making...RAI did not match RAW.

The "loop" only exists if you choose to read "as if you were single-classed member of that class" to not also be referring to your level in that class. I get that that one sentence is worded a little vaguely, since it doesn't specify whether it means treat a wiz 18/clr 2 as cleric 2 or cleric 20 - but that's why they put an example in the following sentence that makes it clear they mean for a wiz 18/clr 2 to prepare cleric spells as if they were a single-classed cleric of level 2, including what levels spell slots they have available. So there really isn't actually a discrepancy between RAW and RAI in this case, just a case of people (often unintentionally) selectively reading the rules.

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• Hero
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Quote from Hollywood_GM >> The "loop" I am referring to is what I call a "rules reference". The general rule tells you to refer a specific rule. In this case on spell-casting to determine what spells you can know and prepare. Only the Cleric class has this wording issue in the PHB. And it isn't saying to treat Cleric as a full 20 for spellcasting. What the RAW are stating is that you can know and prepare x number of spells based on class lvl + ASM. So, for a 20th lvl character, an 18 Wis isn't crazy and this would mean, (6), total Cleric spells can be prepared, just, you can pick any 6 regardless of lvl. Because the Cleric listing still states you can prepare spells for the lvl of spellslots you can cast. With no reference to those spellslots being class specific. With that said, following the rule with an example is providing context, and perhaps some clarification in general on multiclassing spellcasters. It's not overriding what they already told you to do, which was check each of your class' capabilities and use their rules. I am certainly not the only one that has seen this as an issue. In the podcast that was linked above, they mention specifically this issue with wizard at about the 45 minute mark or so, and they said they realized the error and changed the class' text. They did not, however, make the appropriate fix with Cleric. In official play, I am sure you're right and the RAI will be honored. Though, I am sure, that throughout the land there are players desperately pleading their case with their DM. I mean, I know my group would try. Disclaimer: I play with a group of veteran power gamers recently converted from 3.5 to 5e. They're still trying to break everything.