| Author: | Subject: Rooto vs Liquid Fire |
macckone Dispenser of practical lab wisdom  Posts: 2209 Registered: 1-3-2013 Location: Over a mile high Member Is Offline Mood: Electrical | ![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif) posted on 2-10-2018 at 08:42 | |
| Rooto vs Liquid Fire Rooto Professional Drain Opener is 60-100% sulfuric acid with no other listed ingredients. Amazing Liquid Fire is sulphuric acid with rodine 31a. Rodine 31A msds is attached. Most of the ingredients boil off at high heat except: Alkylphenol Ethoxylate which has a boiling point just below sulfuric acid (293-297) for the nonyl variety which is the most commonly available. I suspect Rooto has similar crud in it. But from the look of it we can clean these up simply by bringing it to boiling. Has anyone analyzed the which one of these is best for a home chemist?Attachment: 1816~v~msds_8256.pdf (35kB)This file has been downloaded 991 times |
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| MrHomeScientist International Hazard Posts: 1806 Registered: 24-10-2010 Location: Flerovium Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:35 | |
| I have never found Rooto where I am, but I do use Liquid Fire. Mine is red/orange, which I assumed was due to dissolved carbon. It might look bad but it works just fine as-is, at least for my purposes. I've heard that Rooto can be water clear or pitch black; probably depending on the source. Drain cleaner acid is basically industrial waste, after all. A study of the differences between the brands would be interesting to see. |
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| CobaltChloride Hazard to Others Posts: 239 Registered: 3-3-2018 Location: Romania Member Is Offline | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 11:06 | |
| In Europe they sell Cleamen 420 drain cleaner. The MSDS lists the only ingredient being 98% sulfuric acid. Its color varies from crystal clear to very, very light brown. The brown color is most probably from the bottle because I've noticed that the clear acid gradually turns very light brown when stored in its original HDPE bottle. So far it has worked very well for making esters and HNO3 for me. The ester I made with it (ethyl acetate) didn't have any weird smell at the end (some people had weird smelling products when using drain acid as a catalyst). I know this is sold in multiple European states, so you might just be able to find it in the USA, although chances of this being the case are slim because shipping would cost a lot and be dangerous. |
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| happyfooddance National Hazard Posts: 530 Registered: 9-11-2017 Location: Los Angeles, Ca. Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 11:59 | |
| Thank you macckone, I had been searching for this msds for a while to no avail, I have a container of Kleenout brand H2SO4 which claims to be "highly inhibited" by this rodine stuff, but I couldn't find out what it was. I think at least some of its components might decompose when heated in concentrated acid, because it is crystal clear from the jug, turned caramel to medium brown when heated in a beaker to boiling, and takes about 20-30 minutes of sustained boiling to completely clear. My acid before heating titrated @ about 91 percent IIRC (don't have my notes right here). Or it could be that or a moth flew in the beaker when I wasn't looking as this was done outside (but decently covered). |
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| RogueRose International Hazard Posts: 1601 Registered: 16-6-2014 Member Is Offline | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 12:01 | |
| I think you are mistaken on the Rooto. I just found some good SDS/MSDS and I requested the latest from the company (they should email it to me soon I hope). Check out the SG and it looks like it is listed as 93.19%, I doubt there is other stuff in it either.Attachment: Rooto - H2SO4 - 40153573_MSDS.pdf (1.6MB)This file has been downloaded 1084 timesAttachment: ROOTO Drain Opener-Sulfuric Acid MSDS.pdf (94kB)This file has been downloaded 1047 times |
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| macckone Dispenser of practical lab wisdom Posts: 2209 Registered: 1-3-2013 Location: Over a mile high Member Is Offline Mood: Electrical | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 12:18 | |
| Happyfooddance: All of the components should either decompose or evaporate in hot oxygenated sulfuric acid. RogueRose, On the first data sheet it lists the composition as 60 - 100% sulfuric acid under section VI at the bottom of the page. On the second one it lists the sulfuric acid as 92% of the mix but doesn't list what the other 8% is or is not. Nor does it list the strength of the sulfuric acid that was added. The Rodine 31A is an inhibitor which also contains sulfuric acid. Rooto likely contains an inhibitor as well but we don't know what or the quantity. If it is 92% sulfuric acid with 8% Rodine 31A which is up to 30% acid itself then it could well be 93%. And given the available data Rooto could range in composition, I don't know how much though. MSDS are usually much more liberal than the actual composition. |
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| RogueRose International Hazard Posts: 1601 Registered: 16-6-2014 Member Is Offline | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:11 | |
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  | | Happyfooddance: All of the components should either decompose or evaporate in hot oxygenated sulfuric acid. RogueRose, On the first data sheet it lists the composition as 60 - 100% sulfuric acid under section VI at the bottom of the page. On the second one it lists the sulfuric acid as 92% of the mix but doesn't list what the other 8% is or is not. Nor does it list the strength of the sulfuric acid that was added. The Rodine 31A is an inhibitor which also contains sulfuric acid. Rooto likely contains an inhibitor as well but we don't know what or the quantity. If it is 92% sulfuric acid with 8% Rodine 31A which is up to 30% acid itself then it could well be 93%. And given the available data Rooto could range in composition, I don't know how much though. MSDS are usually much more liberal than the actual composition. |
it may say 60-100 but look at the SG of 1.8354, which is the correct number for 93.19%. if it is 1.8345g/ml then we are looking at 93-94.5% H2SO4 from my calculations. again, the seconf one, look at the specific gravity - 1.835 and lists 94%n which is right where I posted it in the paragraph above. I'm pretty certain that it is pure H2SO4 (plus H2O). I did contact the company and asked if there was anything other than H2SO4 and asked for the most up to date SDS, MSDS, etc for the product. We will see when it comes in. **EDIT - IT's HERE!! 93% H2SO4 7% water Attachment: Rooto SDS from the manufacturer (2.8MB)This file has been downloaded 754 times |
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| JJay International Hazard Posts: 3440 Registered: 15-10-2015 Member Is Offline | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:35 | |
| Regardless of what the SDS says, Rooto 1084 definitely has pickling agents and possibly other substances in it. If you boil it off, it leaves a residue. If you put stainless steel into it, a sticky black coating forms. |
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| macckone Dispenser of practical lab wisdom Posts: 2209 Registered: 1-3-2013 Location: Over a mile high Member Is Offline Mood: Electrical | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 20:15 | |
| It appears that there are multiple products with the same name but different product numbers. Here we are getting Rooto 1069. Even the MSDS provided says there may be trace chemicals up to 1% which could include the inhibitors. Which for my purposes 93% with 1% impurities should be fine. Heat it up and allow water to evaporate with any impurities getting eaten by the hot acid and atmospheric oxygen. |
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| JJay International Hazard Posts: 3440 Registered: 15-10-2015 Member Is Offline | | posted on 2-10-2018 at 20:44 | |
| I distill mine if I'm using it for anything where I am really concerned about the purity of the sulfuric acid. For most purposes, that's not necessary. |
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| XeonTheMGPony International Hazard Posts: 1641 Registered: 5-1-2016 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood | | posted on 3-10-2018 at 03:03 | |
| I add some 35% H2O2, then reflux to max temp as it burns off any thing that will oxidize, then distill it separating out the fractions (2 in this case any thing below 3xx and every thing after 3xx) Weak fraction gets labeled "General purpose sulfuric acid" the concentrated is just called Sulfuric acid. Upon final distillation I often find clear cubic crystals in the bottom along with the last bits of H2SO4, this is not discarded, it is kept in a separate container labeled Sulfuric acid dist, dregs. These dregs is what I used to make SO3 thanks to the max concentration of it and a good way to recycle what would other wise be lost product! Honestly if you want good reliable results, distill distill and distill again for good measure, sure it is tedious and boring, but it does hone your skills at distilling and it gets easier with every run (Which ironically makes it even more boring!) As a warning, sulfuric loves to bump, nothing I do seems to get rid of it, but it is manageable, which means you must be there through the whole run! |
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| macckone Dispenser of practical lab wisdom Posts: 2209 Registered: 1-3-2013 Location: Over a mile high Member Is Offline Mood: Electrical | | posted on 3-10-2018 at 13:05 | |
| The denser the fluid the worse it bumps. Sulfuric at boiling is well over 1.8 in any decent concentration. |
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| Pickerel Harmless Posts: 1 Registered: 20-5-2024 Member Is Offline | | posted on 1-6-2025 at 11:01 | |
| Identified A Particular Contaminant in Rooto Howdy, sorry to get in on the game so late, but I figure this may be useful to some of you who may happen on by in the future. I was able to identify a particular and abundant 'contaminant' in Rooto drain opener (the 93% sulfuric acid). Apparently it contains a not-insignificant amount of dissolved aluminum! (Thus basically aluminum sulfate). Disclaimer: It MAY contain other contaminating ions as well, e.g. Na or K, but aluminum is the one I was able to identify. I was crystallizing out nickel sulfate with some quirkiness (it's been a quirky side project) created using Rooto Professional Drain Opener. I thought a grey precipitate I had might be metallic nickel reduced from Ni2+ by H2SO3, but I wanted to make sure I had all of everything that I could fully reacted and ready to go so that if there was a recalcitrant precipitate it would be distinct, so I mixed in an additional vague volume of the drain opener - probably an overkill amount of like 1:10 by volume, give or take. In order to find out... whatever I might find out. The result was a solution that crystallized in bulk nicely and more completely than These were very similar in form to the alum group of crystals, which crystallize with so much water of crystallization that it could account for their sudden increase in volume compared to prior crystallization even if the aluminum itself wasn't a major portion of the mass. In order to probe if these were aluminum without getting mixed precipitates due to precipitation of nickel with pH change, I used 10% ammonia to raise the pH into the range (6+) within which aluminum precipitates as a gel of Al(OH)3. The benefit here is that ammonia makes a 6-ammonia complex hexaamminenickel with nickel that can, if the concentration of ammonia is high, out-compete nickel's binding to OH-, so that the nickel will stay complexed with ammonia in solution while things that don't form these complexes efficiently, like aluminum, precipitate as hydroxides. So I mostly-isolated a crystal, and dissolved it in distilled water. It had the highish but limited solubility I know aluminum sulfate to have. There was a little Ni2+ contamination, but not a ton. I added ammonia dripwise with swilling. The solution turned slightly cloudy. I did this again but with a much higher concentration of the clear crystals, to the point that they had trouble dissolving, and this time the solution gelled up completely on addition of the ammonia nicely, while the color changed due to the formation of hexaamminenickel from the nickel. This gel slowly settled. I then took a spoonfull of my copper sulfate crystal mass, and dissolved it, and added ammonia until it got cloudy - a precipitate forming - and it did so as the hexaamminenickel also formed; with even more, I was able to form ample hexaamminenickel while whatever that contaminant is precipitated out. I took some of the sulfuric acid itself and added a small amount to my ammonia solution - but within the amount where it still smells of ammonia thus there's an excess of ammonia (thus the pH is a little on the higher side), it made a white precipitate. Demonstrating that the precipitate coming out of these solutions is related to, and likely the same as, the clear crystals, I placed a spoonfull of my nickel sulfate crystal mass into an excess of ammonia. The nickel sulfate went into solution rapidly - more rapidly than regular water, even - but the clear crystals just about refused to dissolve, instead becoming whitish on the outside likely with what I imagine is a passivation layer of presumably Al(OH)3. That is a boon, because it is likely to make it easy to separate my nickel sulfate from a majority of the aluminum using ammonia bubbles into solution, or even just added. The aluminum and the need to remove it does complicate matters. I have this sulfuric acid that won't work well for my purposes with all this aluminum. I need to figure out what to do with it, e.g. make hexaamminenickel sulfate perhaps. Or do something like make the hexaammine complex from a known amount of nickel sulfate and then add an approximately known amount of the sulfuric acid and heat it to break down the complex (freeing up the excess ammonia thereby making the solution basic), decanting the solution leaving the precipitate, That would work because the complex has 6 ammonias incapable of acting as bases, but the double salt has 2 that do and 2 sulfates, leaving 4 that do to increase the pH leading to precipitation of the Al(OH)3, and then offgassing perhaps to be recaptured elsewhere. Or if I can get the stoichiometries right, I could add it all up front... I agree with the people that said to just chip in and get good reagents instead of trying to futz around with things not intended for these purposes. Or distill it first. But here I am ^.^ |
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