Samurai And Alignment - - Forums: Rules Questions

Goodday!

I had a little question. The Samurai can have any alignment but if you logically look at it, they should be at least Lawful since they always keep to their own code or the code of their order.

So my question is rather, what alignment is logical for a Samurai? Especially a Samurai who keep to his own code and doesn't necessarily follow governments and laws, slaughters the bad guys but doesn't harm the innocent. You'd say Lawful Good but I'm not too sure because of the own code bit.

What do you guys think?

Well, let me say this. As a rules question, the answer is that samurai can be of any alignment. As far as the rules are concerned, that's the only answer.

As far as what is a more realistic representation, yes Samurai should probably be lawful. Of course, Ronin could be neutral or chaotic.

Also, remember that Samurai isn't it's own class. It is just a fully written out archetype of Cavalier, which lacks an alignment restriction.

Also, lawful doesn't mean obeys they law necessarily. Lawful is the worst named part of the alignment spectrum. Think of it instead as Order. So, a lawful character is principled and has his own guidelines, but doesn't necessarily care about other people's guidelines or rules for behavior.

Eltacolibre

Aug 23, 2014, 08:49 am

This is a fantasy samurai. Technically all Samurai should not be adventuring much and serves their lord. That's the main job of the Samurai and something most people seems to conveniently forget.

Considering that we are talking about adventurer Samurai, they are more like wandering Samurai, Ronin, most of the time. So any alignment is quite approriate.

I have to agree; Most samurai that realistically adventure either swear themselves to another party member, or are Ronin. So Alignment would be either lawful in the former case, or whatever you want in the latter.

Plus, let us remember that some people are just not that good at their job, even if they are physically able to do it.

Sometimes, you just have an irresponsible vassal who only does the minimum of what is required so he does get forced into seppuku or risk losing his position.

The overall structure might be extremely lawful, but that doesn't mean that everyone within it is. You can have a rowdy drunk barbarian in Cheliax who simply tries not to get on the bad side of the hellknights.

On the other hand, isn't a Ronin just a Samurai who lost his lord? I can't see any reason why that is more likely to happen to chaotic Samurai than to lawful ones.

It is probably more accurate to say that virtually everybody in the society from which Samurai are most likely to come is far more likely to be lawful than chaotic or even neutral.

Remember that one of the "orders" a Samurai can select involves working entirely towards his own goals and popping the finger to everyone else.

A chaotic character can have a code of conduct, it just probably won't involve propping up the existing social order.

Also keep in mind that the Samurai can be reskinned and that there are no implications of place within an Eastern Style feudal structure built into the class beyond that implied by certain choices of Order. You could just as easily flavor a Samurai as belonging to an esoteric order of western knights that use their own (reskinned) weaponry.

For example, I could easily see a CN Vlad the Impaler analog as an Order of the Cockatrice Samurai.

deusvult

Aug 23, 2014, 10:04 am

I disagree with a fundamental tenet in the thinking of the original post... that it is fundamentally "lawful" to stick to a code of honor.

Chaotic people can and do have their own codes of honor; the chaos is more that they don't care what other people think of their personal codes of honor than not sticking to one.

A rugged mountain man or pioneer, for example, may certainly have all sorts of rules for behavior in something akin to the Wild Wild West. But if his code of honor/conduct emphasizes individualism (aka, the needs of the One outweigh the needs of the Many) then he's more chaotic than lawful.

With regards specifically to a samurai culture, I'd suggest at least a cursory look at AEG's Legend of the Five Rings setting. Specifically the Scorpion Clan. Those guys are steeped in honor, yet if it were D&D/Pathfinder they'd be all sorts of Chaotic.

Also keep in mind that the Samurai can be reskinned and that there are no implications of place within an Eastern Style feudal structure built into the class beyond that implied by certain choices of Order. You could just as easily flavor a Samurai as belonging to an esoteric order of western knights that use their own (reskinned) weaponry.

Or someone who's in no order at all.

Of course they draw their power of being lawful.

LazarX

Mar 3, 2015, 10:22 am

Goodday!

I had a little question. The Samurai can have any alignment but if you logically look at it, they should be at least Lawful since they always keep to their own code or the code of their order.

So my question is rather, what alignment is logical for a Samurai? Especially a Samurai who keep to his own code and doesn't necessarily follow governments and laws, slaughters the bad guys but doesn't harm the innocent. You'd say Lawful Good but I'm not too sure because of the own code bit.

What do you guys think?

A chaotic Samurai can follow a code just as much as a lawful one. The difference is that a chaotic samurai either follows a code purely for his own reasons, or follows one he made up for himself, as opposed to following one imposed on him.

Think of it this way. In Star Trek you're supposed to think of Worf as the ultimate Klingon. But you'll see that most Klingons while they pay lip service to the concept of honor, fall far short of actually practicing it to the extent he does. Most samurai are like those other Klingons.

JonathonWilder

Mar 3, 2015, 01:23 pm

I would very much argue a Samurai's Code is in many ways much like that of Paladin's Code, more at least assuring that a samurai that stays true to their code is very much Lawful. If anything the Bushido Code is just as restrictive when compared to the Paladin's Code if not more so, and it did very much mattered for those following the code to gain acceptance by those of equal or greater rank. Honor is the eyes of others and oneself.

The Seven Tenets of Bushido Spoiler: Yuki (Valor) - Possessing the bravery/courage to face all of life’s challenges squarely with a resolute and moral heart. It is important that bravery and courage should not be confused with pride. Bravery and courage are necessary to identify and achieve life’s goals and the setbacks that surround them. Jin (Benevolence) - A feeling of good will to all, a magnanimous and compassionate state founded on the understanding that we are all the same and should be treated with the same respect regardless of station or situation. This requires lifelong practice and discipline (shugyo) to counter the more current and prevalent sentiments of judgment, separatism, mistrust, etc. Gi (Rectitude/Justice) - Right behavior, conduct, and character. Gi is closely linked to justice and a person that possesses the character to act swiftly and resolutely for the cause of justice. This type of character is not borne of mere intellectual understanding. It is much more an instinctive and intuitive understanding of that which is naturally good and just. Rei (Etiquette) - Rei refers to the courtesies and conduct required to be a functional contributor to family, dojo, society, etc. This type of conduct, or right action, is not practiced because one may be ostracized if not adhering to such conduct. It is much more important to realize that courtesy is a fundamental right of each individual, a major facet of the Iemoto system, and fundamental to the successful transfer of the lessons of Budo. Makoto (Truth/Honesty) - The foundation of right action, makoto, or truth and honesty, is comprised of acting and communicating in an honest and rigorous manner as well as possessing the virtue of integrity. Integrity: being truthful, keeping our word, and cleaning up the mess when we make it, is an integral factor in the establishment and nurturing of successful relationships. Chugi (Loyalty) - The primary application of Chugi is detailed in the character Gi – or duty. Duty to family, based on filial piety (Ko) is a fundamental aspect of this virtue. Duty and obligation must then transfer to relationships in the dojo and all of life’s endeavors. We must also be loyal to our own goals, plans, objectives and the realistic path of attainment. Here, makoto, being absolutely honest with ourselves, is imperative in defining such a realistic path. Meiyo (Honor) - Meiyo could be considered to be the sum – total of the previous six virtues. One practiced in and possessing the above listed virtues would certainly emerge from this disciplined lifestyle as an honorable individual. The self-esteem and honor of such an individual would be consistently above reproach. Like the samurai of old, a stain on one’s honor/name, should be a sense of great shame for the Budo–ka and avoided at all cost.

LazarX

Mar 3, 2015, 01:30 pm

I would very much argue a Samurai's Code is in many ways much like that of Paladin's Code, more at least assuring that a samurai that stays true to their code is very much Lawful. If anything the Bushido Code is just as restrictive when compared to the Paladin's Code if not more so, and it did very much mattered for those following the code to gain acceptance by those of equal or greater rank. Honor is the eyes of others and oneself.

The Seven Tenets of Bushido ** spoiler omitted **...

In theory yes, but in practice the code was followed more in lip service to bully the lower classes. It's far more important to convincingly fake sincerity than to actually be sincere. Likewise a samurai can be stripped of his status for being falsely accused, even though actually innocent.

JonathonWilder

Mar 3, 2015, 01:33 pm

Also it should be noted that when Shinto was made the state religion of Japan, the Bushido Code was adopted as its ruling moral code. So, in this way, the Samurai's code of conduct became a religious code... heck I would say in many ways the samurai are, or at least could be, the paladins of Japan when it comes to how one lives their life.

JonathonWilder

Mar 3, 2015, 01:34 pm

In theory yes, but in practice the code was followed more in lip service to bully the lower classes. It's far more important to convincingly fake sincerity than to actually be sincere. Likewise a samurai can be stripped of his status for being falsely accused, even though actually innocent.

Perhaps so, but while you have those that 'faked it' there would be those that truly and sincerely followed this code.

Also it should be noted that when Shinto was made the state religion of Japan, the Bushido Code was adopted as its ruling moral code. So, in this way, the Samurai's code of conduct became a religious code... heck I would say in many ways the samurai are, or at least could be, the paladins of Japan when it comes to how one lives their life.

Well considering that Buddhism arrived in Japan around 650 AD, and Shinto was the "state religion" long before then, and samurai didn't appear until around 1000 AD, I don't know how you could attribute the adoption of Bushido in any relationship to Shinto (the two could be separated by 1000 years or more.)

Most samurai become ronin, when their lord, is done fighting any wars, so essentially fires off the warriors he cannot afford. It is seldom for reasons of a falling by the samurai themselves. Becoming ronin often has little to do with situations of honor.

I would very much argue a Samurai's Code is in many ways much like that of Paladin's Code, more at least assuring that a samurai that stays true to their code is very much Lawful. If anything the Bushido Code is just as restrictive when compared to the Paladin's Code if not more so, and it did very much mattered for those following the code to gain acceptance by those of equal or greater rank. Honor is the eyes of others and oneself.

The Seven Tenets of Bushido ** spoiler omitted **...

The difference is that bushido is just a code some people liked to enforce on themselves and others. Breaking the code did not make you not a samurai, while breaking the paladin's code does make you fall.

There was nothing stopping a scheming, conniving lying bastard, or a bloodthirsty murdermachine from being samurai (even if they were supposedly very bad ones). Hell, the entire sengoku jidai is basically samurai stabbing everyone in the back, involving their lords (and then getting stabbed in the back).

I would very much argue a Samurai's Code is in many ways much like that of Paladin's Code, more at least assuring that a samurai that stays true to their code is very much Lawful. If anything the Bushido Code is just as restrictive when compared to the Paladin's Code if not more so, and it did very much mattered for those following the code to gain acceptance by those of equal or greater rank. Honor is the eyes of others and oneself.

The Seven Tenets of Bushido ** spoiler omitted **...

Except, y'know, these Seven Tenets are not inherent to Pathfinder Samurais. I'd be really fascinated to hear your argument as to how a Samurai of the Order of the Cockatrice must absolutely be lawful.

JonathonWilder wrote:

I would very much argue a Samurai's Code is in many ways much like that of Paladin's Code, more at least assuring that a samurai that stays true to their code is very much Lawful. If anything the Bushido Code is just as restrictive when compared to the Paladin's Code if not more so, and it did very much mattered for those following the code to gain acceptance by those of equal or greater rank. Honor is the eyes of others and oneself.

The Seven Tenets of Bushido ** spoiler omitted **...

Except, y'know, these Seven Tenets are not inherent to Pathfinder Samurais. I'd be really fascinated to hear your argument as to how a Samurai of the Order of the Cockatrice must absolutely be lawful.

The samurai that most people think of with the Bushido code and all the rest only really arose during the Edo period 1600-1868. Even then it was an ideal all too often not lived up to.

The samurai rose to prominence in the mid-12th century and the first shogunate started towards the end of that century. Long before Bushido was codified. And if you read the Tale of the Heike and the Taiheike (chronicling the beginning and end of the Kamakura shogunate respectively) you'll see a lot of backstabbing, treachery, conniving, and things that we would consider extremely chaotic and dishonorable.

So it makes sense to me that samurai can be of any alignment, just as it makes sense to me that western style knights (cavaliers) can be of any alignment. What makes the samurai distinctive is the particular training in weaponry and a certain style, but apart from that there were idealists and opportunists, benevolent ones and malevolent ones as there were among knights.

The samurai that most people think of with the Bushido code and all the rest only really arose during the Edo period 1600-1868. Even then it was an ideal all too often not lived up to.

The samurai rose to prominence in the mid-12th century and the first shogunate started towards the end of that century. Long before Bushido was codified. And if you read the Tale of the Heike and the Taiheike (chronicling the beginning and end of the Kamakura shogunate respectively) you'll see a lot of backstabbing, treachery, conniving, and things that we would consider extremely chaotic and dishonorable.

So it makes sense to me that samurai can be of any alignment, just as it makes sense to me that western style knights (cavaliers) can be of any alignment. What makes the samurai distinctive is the particular training in weaponry and a certain style, but apart from that there were idealists and opportunists, benevolent ones and malevolent ones as there were among knights.

I firmly agree with all of this. Bushido, much like chivalry, was a code of morality which was followed about as often as it was broken.

It does, however, bring one fun idea to mind. Since we have the Paladin as the paragon of chivalry, what about a Paladin/Samurai archetype that would be a similar paragon of Bushido ideals?

Lincoln Hills

Mar 3, 2015, 08:01 pm

I'd agree that a samurai who follows a Lawful alignment would probably be widely respected for 'following the code,' but I'd strongly question any need for a 'required alignment' on the class. While a CN samurai will almost certainly be disavowed by his lord and disowned by his family, that doesn't mean he'll forget any of the training that was drummed into him. Those abilities aren't "gifts" that can be revoked.

I'd agree that the majority of NPC samurai encountered should be of non-chaotic alignments, but that's just the result of their upbringing and their peer group.

Taishaku wrote:

The samurai that most people think of with the Bushido code and all the rest only really arose during the Edo period 1600-1868. Even then it was an ideal all too often not lived up to.

The samurai rose to prominence in the mid-12th century and the first shogunate started towards the end of that century. Long before Bushido was codified. And if you read the Tale of the Heike and the Taiheike (chronicling the beginning and end of the Kamakura shogunate respectively) you'll see a lot of backstabbing, treachery, conniving, and things that we would consider extremely chaotic and dishonorable.

So it makes sense to me that samurai can be of any alignment, just as it makes sense to me that western style knights (cavaliers) can be of any alignment. What makes the samurai distinctive is the particular training in weaponry and a certain style, but apart from that there were idealists and opportunists, benevolent ones and malevolent ones as there were among knights.

I firmly agree with all of this. Bushido, much like chivalry, was a code of morality which was followed about as often as it was broken.

It does, however, bring one fun idea to mind. Since we have the Paladin as the paragon of chivalry, what about a Paladin/Samurai archetype that would be a similar paragon of Bushido ideals?

The thing is, though - Paladin's aren't "knights". They're Paladins.

Knights like Lancelot and Galahad who had Paladin-like abilities (mostly the Lay on Hands thing) descend from Paladins in legends of Charlemagne.

The Cavalier is much closer to honest-to-goodness knights, and even to the vast majority of the Knights of the Round Table, meaning adhering to Orders (or not, in the case of Knights Errant, which is an option), but not necessarily Lawful.

Holy "warriors" in Japanese mythology, however, are more like Oracles, Clerics, Inquisitors, and especially Warpriests. They could even be Shamans, really.

Even Taoist Immortals like those from the Fengshen Yanyi or legends of the Eight Immortals are more like Mage-Knights, meaning the Magus, Summoner, Warpriest, Inquisitor, or even the Arcanist would be a better fit thematically for magical warriors in the East.

JonathonWilder

Mar 4, 2015, 09:41 am

Well if I play a samurai, it would be that of a warrior who believed and followed the bushido code as closely as he could. I would take the extra effort to play him much as I would a Paladin, perhaps even take level in such to strengthen this.

When I think of samurai, I think of their honor and nobility, of their loyalty to their lord and house. This is what would inspire me to play the class, so I wouldn't feel right not playing them as whole anything other then lawful. Except ronin, but even then mattering how they became without a lord I may play them as Lawful.

I see too much structure just to ignore it, though there would realistically be many who called themselves samurai and say they live by the bushido code when it truth they do not... but perhaps that could allow the party to expose such individuals, yet if only by having a samurai of their own in the party willing to expose one of their own.

Okay, so that's how you, specifically, would play a Samurai. Nobody else is beholden to how you would play it and have no need to conform to your overly idealistic view of Japanese history.

Jericho Graves

Mar 4, 2015, 01:35 pm

Samurai as a class =/= Samurai as a station. I think OOTS already made this connection. OOTS #209..

Samurai as a class could constitute the training to become a traditional samurai, but it doesn't quite feel like the real thing since samurai could have many skill sets beyond the militaristic.

So... eh, my 2 cp. Not really trying to be serious, just proposing a different viewpoint through humor.

Samurai as a class =/= Samurai as a station. I think OOTS already made this connection. OOTS #209..

Samurai as a class could constitute the training to become a traditional samurai, but it doesn't quite feel like the real thing since samurai could have many skill sets beyond the militaristic.

So... eh, my 2 cp. Not really trying to be serious, just proposing a different viewpoint through humor.

Rite Publishing Way of the Samurai (PFRPG), though 3PP, follows that premise. Although there are 3 samurai class archetypes, emphasizing Samurai as a social caste, also included are archetypes for gunslinger, paladin, ranger and wizard, all also members of the Samurai (Buke) caste, and 2 prestige classes. Its the idea that any character class can portray some flavor of samurai (the concept) with the right fluff and proficiencies included.

This supplement also includes its own simple Honor rules system that allows for loyalty to a community instead of to a lord, so a ronin can still maintain honor. Some of the archetypes have class features that use that honor score.