Two Cherries Chisels....Opinions?? - FineWoodworking

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10saw | Posted in Hand Tools on November 4, 2006 04:01am

Hi,

Anyone using these chisels? Seem like the best deal quality vs. price. A set of 6 is $123 via Craftsmanstudio.com.

Yea I’d love the Lie-Nielsens and some Japanese chisels and will build up to them soon but now my bread and butter is finish carpentry cabinet making and I need some good chisels that will hold and edge better than my ol’ Stanleys.

Thanks,

Replies

Samson | Nov 04, 2006 04:25am | #1
I have a gouge and mortise chisel from Two Cherries. I'd be glade to have many more of their line!

One thing for what it may be worth: The Two Cherries bench chisels are metric sizes, right? If you work imperial, there are times (though not that often) when the slight size discrepencies might be an annoyance (for excample, sometimes you want a chisel that fits a particular groove, dado, or mortise, etc. exactly).
Hazlett | Nov 04, 2006 02:37pm | #2
allen,

buy the 2cherries and buy them NOW!---pronto, immediately---yesterday even!

seriously,

I own a 2cherries mortise chisel that I am extremely happy with--EXTREMELY.

In fact-----after seeing that price from the source you mentioned--- I think I am gonna buy the same set you are getting and relegate my marples to "beater chisel" status----

Really--- the one I have is very, VERY nice--------and everytime I pick it up it reminds me to appreciate simple things done well

Very best wishes to you,

Stephen
JeffHeath | Nov 04, 2006 03:10pm | #3
Allen,

I have them, and they are very, very good.

Jeff
derekcohen | Nov 04, 2006 04:34pm | #4
Al

Make sure that you get the unpolished version - far less work to flatten the back.

Regards from Perth

Derek

AdamCherubini | Nov 04, 2006 04:55pm | #5
Derek, you should explain this further. There are two things I really dislike about these chisels- I have Hirsch which are essentially the same as 2 cherries. I don't like the handles. I really don't like the bolsters at the butt ends. But its probably not smart to choose a chisel based on its handle. The other thing I don't like is the fact that they are metric. Now do you think instead of going to town on the back, could you grind the sides off a little? You might be able to grind them to English, which, especially in the smaller/joint sizes, would be worth your while? What do you think Derek? BTW, do you work in metric?Adam

derekcohen | Nov 04, 2006 06:20pm | #6
Hi Adam

The choice of Two Cherroes/Hirsch chisels come up so often. Their steel has a good reputation, but equally there are complaints about the time it takes to flatten the backs of the blades (you cannot sharpen them properly until this is done) because they get rounded when polished at the factory. But Two Cherries also manufacture an unpolished set, which is the better choice in these circumstances. See below.

View Image

I can't say that I am mad about their handles either. I prefer a longer handles for paring. I also prefer them less chunky.

As it happens, today I began on a task that I have been promising myself to do for a few years - replacing the handles of my paring chisels, which are Bergs (and which remind me a little of the Two Cherries - not as "bad" but similar). I have picked my "set" up individually over the years. The handles have been abused by many hammers. I prefer to push them, so the new handles are optimised for this (no bolsters). If I have to chop on a chisel I use Japanese chisels.

Here is what I made up today (I am no expert with a lathe). For comparison is a Matsumura dovetail chisel (you can see how much shorter it is) and a Berg 1" (you can see how chunky it is).

View Image

Metric or Imperial? The Bergs are all Imperial. The Japanese are Metric. I have rules and tapes in both. The OBM chisels are roughly Imperial. I am not sure if any of these chisels are perfectly accurate to the size they are stated to be.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Edited 11/4/2006 11:36 am ET by derekcohen

AdamCherubini | Nov 04, 2006 08:48pm | #7
Let me just punctuate one thing: When they round the edges of the flat back over, that radius goes all the way to the sharpened edge. If you leave the radius and just hone the bevel, the corners of the blade will be dull. You could profile them over like a smoother's blade. But I don't recommend it. You need a nice crisp corners on a firming chisel. I've seen paring chisels with a cambered edge, but not firmers. So this is a pretty big deal.What I'm suggesting is considering grinding the edges off. What I have are 2, 6, 10, 12, 16, 20mm. I mic'ed them instead of assuming their names were accurate. As it turns out, they were very accurate.The 2mm is pretty much worthless. Its .075 wide, so just a little over a sixteenth. Its a worthless tool in my shop. A joke.The 6mm (.235) is a light 1/4" by .015. So if I plow a 1/4" groove for a drawer bottom, I have to fuss with this chisel to clean it up. I'd much rather have a chisel the exact width of my plow iron and my 1/4" mortiser (I do have, its just not my Hirsch). This chisel I should probably grind down to a heavy 3/16", taking .015 off each edge.The 10mm (.396) is a heavy three eights (.394) and should be brought down to 3/8". And .4 is an awkward size in cabinetry. Its too big for a groove in 4/4 stock, its a really big mortise. Better is 5/16" If you are going to buy one mortiser, that's the size to get. But its not too bad for dovetails.The 12mm (.471) is my favorite of the lot. Its a decent size for dovetails. I really like having chisels 7/16", 8/16", and 9/16" for carcass dovetails. Hirsch only offers the 12mm and possibly the 10mm in this size range, the 10 being a bit too small, for carcass dts, a bit too large for London pattern drawers. But its not unusable.The 16mm is pretty darn close to 5/8" and I find its an even swap for a 5/8" chisel- which I use for the pins on half blinds.The 20mm is fine. I like a chisel wider than 3/4" to clean up 3/4" rabbets. Ditto, I like a 1-1/2" chisel for clean up tenons cheeks. I don't feel as strongly about these big sizes as I do about the smaller. But I wish they had different handles.My feeling about these chisels is that they reflect the general ignorance about hand tool work. In keeping with every chisel review I've read over the last 10 years, Hirsch/Kirschen/ECE have mistaken the function of a chisel for edge holding. In fact, softer chisels with good patterns (blade shapes) and nice handles can be advantageous. They require more frequent honing, but they are easier to hone. Specifically, I find thin chisels are superior to Stanley 750 style chisels for chopping dt's. I'm not a carpenter. I'm not interested in a sharpened cold chisel to wail upon like some some "damned hairy ape".In all, I hate the handles, resent the dubbing, and feel U.S. cabinetmakers are screwed out of a decent 1/4", 5/16", and 3/8" chisel. The fact that the steel is as good as it gets doesn't make up for their missing sizes.Adam

Edited 11/4/2006 6:54 pm ET by AdamCherubini

derekcohen | Nov 05, 2006 03:26am | #9
When they round the edges of the flat back over, that radius goes all the way to the sharpened edge. If you leave the radius and just hone the bevel, the corners of the blade will be dull. You could profile them over like a smoother's blade. But I don't recommend it. You need a nice crisp corners on a firming chisel. I've seen paring chisels with a cambered edge, but not firmers. So this is a pretty big deal.

Adam

Those points you make are very true. Just yesterday I was flattening the backs of some chisels for a friend. In this case I was using the disk sander on my belt sander combo (in the jig I wrote about recently). All I needed was a couple of seconds on a 600 grit disk to reveal the highs and lows. What became apparent was that the corners at the back of the bevel were cambered, which the result that the blade would have to cut as per a smoother's cambered blade (i.e. if blown up, the shape would resemble a scalloped out groove). Putting a flat across the blade restored the full cutting edge.

Oh Mel, thanks for the compliment, but I am not an expert - I just enjoy sharing observations.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Lataxe | Nov 05, 2006 02:30pm | #10
Derek & Adam,

The info about the flattening-out the rounded corners of the chisels is very useful.

I have begun to acquire these chisels (in MHG disguise) as I need them - in excellent metric sizes, Adam - no 1/64ths for me!. I quite like the lumpy hornbeam handes and the steel does seem to keep an edge very well, even with me abusing it. These chisels are a vast improvement on the Marples blue handled ones I have used up to now.

Unfortunately, the MHG versions of these chisels come not just polished but also with a thin laquer all over the blades, to make them look even shinier. A classic case of marketing the look of something rather than its pure function. I suspect that the lacquering and polishing is wasted on the customers, in any case, who these days see and buy such items from catalogues or web sites, so don't actually notice the shiny aspect when they make their buying decision.

I figured out the problem of the rounded over edge on the backs and got rid of that by sharpening the bevel (including a microbevel). I only "flattened" off the laquer from the backs, which backs did go truly flat quite quickly. The 26mm one required the most work, naturally.

However, I missed the bit about the rounded corners due to the additional rounding over of the chisel long edges on their backs. So the diamond stone will have to come out for a bit more back-flattening. A good job I read this thread, eh?

Happily I have only three chisels to do (so far); it would be getting to be a pain if there was a whole set needing the lacquer and rounded edges fettling.

Of course, their metric sizes mean no need for me to grind them down from sensible millimetre increments into weird fractional sizes of an inch, so I have less work than Adam, who should probably retool his other stuff with items made to proper measurements. Millimetres are at least 19th Century you know, so can be regarded as "traditional" by now. :-)

Lataxe.
9619 | Nov 05, 2006 09:48pm | #11
Friends, Those interested in this thread should go to the General Discussion area and read the thread on Swiss versus German steel in tools. There is a good deal of overlap between the two. It is a very long thread. To me there were three messages in it which are overwhelming: 1) Ray Pine has used lots of differrent brands of chisels and hasn't found much difference between any of the big names. 2) QCInspector did a hardness test on a set of chisels, but he concluded that there is not much difference. He recommended that the best way to select between different brands of chisels is to see which fits your hands best. 3) Willie had a cheap set from Grizzly, and later he had a set of Pfeil. He said that he can't tell the difference between them. My conclusion from all of that we should be more concerned about our carving techniques and skills than the brand name of the chisels and gauges that we buy.Enjoy. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
AdamCherubini | Nov 06, 2006 06:14am | #12
Buona Sera Senore!I guess the difference here is I'm elluding to my technique with this meant to be silly "review". Of course its just a matter of personal preference, but there is an insight here that I wanted to share. More can be done with chisels than pare joints and there's more to a good chisel than edge holding. Not exactly the meaning of life, but hey this IS a woodworking forum! civediamo mi amico,Adam
9619 | Nov 06, 2006 06:41am | #13
Adam, It's good to hear from you again. Your insights are both helpful and fun. I read all of your posts. You are one of the people who got me interested in moving toward handtools. I appreciate that. I checked the backs of my Hirsch chisels after you brought up the fact that the polishing dubbed the edges. By the way, I didn't buy the Hirsch chisels because they were polished, but because I was happy with my old set of Two Cherrys Carving Gauges, and I learned that Hirsch and Two Cherries come off the same line. I did spend a lot of time getting the backs flat, after removing the lacquer they put on. I believe the hard work really did flatten the backs and solved the dubbing problem. I use my bench chisels, along with my carving gauges for carving. Please take a look at my post in the Knots Gallery. I posted two photos of the plane that I just made. Philip Marcou asked about the specs to which it was built. I put them in my response to Philip.Ciao. A presto. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.

9619 | Nov 04, 2006 09:17pm | #8
Allen, Derek and Adam are experts. I am not. But I have had a set of two Cberries carving gauges for over thirty years, and a few years ago, I bought the set of Hirsch bench chisels from Lee Valley. As others have pointed out, these were fully polished. I did flatten the backs and sharpened and honed the chisels. The Hirsch are identical to the Two Cherries bench chisels. I have found both my Hirsch bench chisels and Two Cherries carving gauges hold a good edge. They work fine for me. There is a significant difference in price between the Two Cherries and Hirsch chisel sets if you go with the Hirsch from Lee Valley.

Please understand that I am not contradicting Derek and Adam. I am merely saying that I took the time to flatten the backs, and that they serve my purposes well.

Always remember that the cheapest way to go is always to buy Lie Nielsen. You can use any of their tools for a year, five years, or more, and sell them on EBay for about the same price you bought them for. You can't beat that with a stick.

Let us know what you decide, and whether you are happy with the decision. Note that if you buy Lie Nielsen, and you are not satisfied, they'll take 'em back. Can you get that guarantee elsewhere?

Enjoy, Mel

Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Swede42 | Nov 07, 2006 09:35am | #14
Allen

I have about 14 2 Cherries carving chisels that I bought new about 27 years ago and have used off and on ever since. They have proved to hold a very good edge for a long time and have held up very well. The only thing I dont care for is the round handle because they roll oround on the bench. But this can be fixed by just sanding a flat spot on one side using a belt sander. I should have bought more at the time because I think I paid about $80 for all of them back then.

Ron