Why Did Akechi Mitsuhide Betray Oda Nobunaga? - Historum
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- Thread starter wario2255
- Start date Aug 1, 2012
- Tags akechi betray mitsuhide nobunaga oda
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wario2255
Joined Jun 2012 167 Posts | 0+ Why did Akechi Mitsuhide betray Oda Nobunaga? Reasons for Betrayal No one knows exactly why Mitsuhide went against his lord, but here is a short list of the many argued theories for the coup d'état. Ambition - Mitsuhide wanted the land for himself and did not want to be under anyone's authority. A variation adds that he was too impatient to wait for a promotion and killed Nobunaga to get ahead. Held a grudge - here are some of the popular clauses for this one. When Ieyasu complained about the food he was served during his stay at Azuchi Castle, Nobunaga ruthlessly threw Mitsuhide's priceless dinnerware into the garden pond. During the battle at Yagami Castle in 1575, Mitsuhide let his mother die for Nobunaga's cause. When the Oda first won victory during the subjugation of the Takeda, Mitsuhide praised his colleagues at a banquet. Nobunaga considered his comment superficial and kicked him. In the Kawasumi Taikōki, Kobayakawa Takakage supposedly said that Mitsuhide did not easily forgive people and was the type to hold grudges. Nobunaga asked him - trusting Mitsuhide to cut him down if he got too ruthless, this legend states that Mitsuhide was only fulfilling an oath he previously made with his lord. Shikoku relations - during the 1581~1582 campaign to subjugate Shikoku, Chōsokabe Motochika allegedly befriended Mitsuhide's vassal, Saitō Toshimitsu. The trio planned to work together to reclaim the Shikoku territory with Mitsuhide asked to kill Motochika's antagonist from afar, Nobunaga. Tricked by Hosokawa Fujitaka - Fujitaka was said to have promised to aid Mitsuhide but was really reporting the betrayer's plot to Hideyoshi (although they arrived too late to save Nobunaga as they planned). For the Jesuits - advocated by historian, Tachibana Kyoko. She reasons that it was a scheme to allow the Jesuits to gain independence as Nobuanga reportedly used them as puppet leaders for his own "demonic" influence. In her theory, their final goal was to ask aid from the Ming Dynasty and create their own military power. Other theories state that he was either asked or influenced by Mōri Terumoto, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Ashikaga Yoshiaki, Nōhime, the Shimazu clan or Emperor Ōgimachi.
Mangekyou
Joined Jan 2010 12,635 Posts | 4,372+ UK I would guess that part of it may have stemmed from an early incident. Mitsuhide was sent to subdue the Hatano clan. He was able to reach a settlement with Hideharu Hatano, but Nobunaga later overturned this and had Hideharu executed. Iirc, Mitsuhide was accused of treachery by the Hatano. This would probably have garnered a bit of ill will from Mitsuhide, towards Nobunaga.
Indy11
Joined Feb 2011 871 Posts | 0+ The Bitten Big Apple Based on all of the incidents in which Nobunaga shamed or essentially insulted Mitsuhide, there was a slow burn which he did not allow to catch fire until he was certain of Nobunaga's defeat.
leakbrewergator
Joined Apr 2010 6,329 Posts | 6+ US It was a straight power play. No more. No less.
harbinger
Joined Apr 2010 719 Posts | 3+ In japan who is held in highest regard of the three shoguns?
Naomasa298
Joined Apr 2010 51,305 Posts | 12,310+ Awesomeharbinger said: In japan who is held in highest regard of the three shoguns? Click to expand...Which three?
harbinger
Joined Apr 2010 719 Posts | 3+ nobunaga,hideyoshi and leyasu obviously. Naomasa298
Joined Apr 2010 51,305 Posts | 12,310+ Awesomeharbinger said: nobunaga,hideyoshi and leyasu obviously. Click to expand...Well, for starters, of those three, only one (Ieyasu) actually became Shogun. Nobunaga never completed his unification of the country but he did not accept the title when it was offered to him. And Hideyoshi used the title Kampaku, and later more famously, Taiko. As to which one is held in higher regard, they all have their adherents. K
kujirakira
Joined Aug 2012 22 Posts | 0+harbinger said: In japan who is held in highest regard of the three shoguns? Click to expand...When you mention "the three shoguns", I think of Minamoto Yoritomo, Ashikaga Takauji, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. As there have been 3 shogunal governments in Japanese history and these 3 men were the founders of each.
harbinger said: nobunaga,hideyoshi and leyasu obviously. Click to expand...Neither Nobunaga nor Hideyoshi had the correct bloodlines to claim Shogun. Though Nobunaga did make some claims of Minamoto blood (his clan is recognized to be descended from Taira), these claims are dubious and their purpose is rather transparent. Hideyoshi was a son of an Ashigaru, which is to say a peasant warrior. Hideyoshi made Ashigaru into bonafide Samurai at the same time that he restricted the ownership of weapons to Samurai. In this way, he was able to sort of legitimize his own ancestry -- while also establishing a little more control over who had the ability to wage warfare in a country which had just left a century of Civil War. As far as how they are regarded within Japan, my impression is that Nobunaga is sort of regarded as a no-nonsense tyrant. And certainly, there's ample evidence to support that view. Toyotomi, on the other handed, is often referred to as simply the Saru (monkey). This is meant to reference his facial features, but I can't help feeling it's also a reference to his lack of bloodlines. He's regarded as very charismatic, but also very calculating. In tv shows, the character is almost always very energetic and socially active in the presence of others -- getting them to drink, etc. And then very thoughtful in solitude as if it was all an act. On the other hand, I feel that Ieyasu' image has benefited much from the fact that his descendants and followers controlled the country's culture for the centuries that followed. His image is very glossy as a result. Sometimes he's portrayed as a very shrewd mastermind with 0 scruples like Tenchijin. But he always has a certain sense of dignity in his portrayals. Thus my inclination is that Ieyasu > Toyotomi >> Nobunaga in how they're generally perceived by the mainstream public. Regarding Mitsuhide, like many decisions of that weight and import -- I don't think it can be boiled down to just 1 factor. I believe he must have felt there were many reasons to do what he did. There's ample reason for malice on his part as well -- being repeatedly berated and embarrassed by Nobunaga is one. Having his mother killed is another. Certainly these all weighed on his mind over the years he paid service to the Oda. Personally, I don't think it was a matter of a power move. His actions afterwards strike me as more of last-minute after thoughts than what I'd expect from somebody who had been planning to overthrow their lord for years. Rather my personal impression is that his actions had to do with more personal issues between himself and Nobunaga.
leakbrewergator
Joined Apr 2010 6,329 Posts | 6+ USkujirakira said: Regarding Mitsuhide, like many decisions of that weight and import -- I don't think it can be boiled down to just 1 factor. I believe he must have felt there were many reasons to do what he did. There's ample reason for malice on his part as well -- being repeatedly berated and embarrassed by Nobunaga is one. Having his mother killed is another. Certainly these all weighed on his mind over the years he paid service to the Oda. Personally, I don't think it was a matter of a power move. His actions afterwards strike me as more of last-minute after thoughts than what I'd expect from somebody who had been planning to overthrow their lord for years. Rather my personal impression is that his actions had to do with more personal issues between himself and Nobunaga. Click to expand...That Mitsuhide acted on personal issues he had with Nobunaga has been refuted by a few historians.Most notably by Takayanagi Mitsutoshi in his biography of the man, The book is a very good read if you can read Japanese. Jeroen Lamers cited Mitsutoshi when arguing that Mitsuhide acted on ambitions to take over the realm. His main case comes from the timing of Mitsuhide's revolt. If he would have waited any longer, Nobunaga would have been unassailable. If he would have acted sooner, there would have been too many opponents from outside of the Oda camp to contend with. Also, take it for whatever you want, but both Oto Gyuichi and Luis Frois ascribe to the theory that Mitushide had plans on ruling Nobunaga's realm. From Frois, "Akechi got so carried away by his wild desire and ambition that he wanted to become lord of the Tenca himself."
kujirakira said: When you mention "the three shoguns", I think of Minamoto Yoritomo, Ashikaga Takauji, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. As there have been 3 shogunal governments in Japanese history and these 3 men were the founders of each. Click to expand...Interestingly enough (and to further derail the thread, I guess...), Yoritomo was never known as Shogun during his lifetime... Sorry if any of my above post doesn't make any sense. I went out with the wife tonight for the first time in a while. May have had more than a few.
C Crusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+Naomasa298 said: Well, for starters, of those three, only one (Ieyasu) actually became Shogun. Nobunaga never completed his unification of the country but he did not accept the title when it was offered to him. And Hideyoshi used the title Kampaku, and later more famously, Taiko. As to which one is held in higher regard, they all have their adherents. Click to expand...Actually, there's a saying in Japan, "Nobunaga planted the seeds, Hideyoshi fertilized the seeds, and Ieyasu grew the seeds." Nobunaga may not have completed his unification, but he defeated a bunch of powerful clans during his time. He was known for his ruthlessness too, like for example he destroyed Buddhists temples because they were against him, thus he, "planted the seeds." Hideyoshi then decimated Mitsuhide, returned order to the Oda Clan in the form of the Battles of [Komaki -] Nagakute and Shizugatake, brought order to the imperial court, unified Kyushu, and devoured the Hojo. Thus he, "fertilized the seeds." Ieyasu slowly took over the Toyotomi's rule over Japan and went into the Battle of Sekigahara. He destroyed Mitsunari and the majority of the Toyotomi loyalists. After that, he overcame Osaka Castle in a sea of crimson flame. Thus he, "planted the seeds." So, they all played their part in unifying Japan, although Ieyasu united Japan, he probably couldn't have reap as much success military - wise compared to Nobunaga. Ieyasu may have started the Edo Period, but it's more than likely Nobunaga would've united Japan too, but in a better way tenfold.
leakbrewergator
Joined Apr 2010 6,329 Posts | 6+ USCrusader13 said: but it's more than likely Nobunaga would've united Japan too, but in a better way tenfold. Click to expand...Care to elaborate on your theory here?
C Crusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+leakbrewergator said: Care to elaborate on your theory here?Well, it's simple really. Nobunaga had destroyed the Azai and Azakura and the Imagawa. He could have recuperated, which he did in Kyoto. While recuperating, he could have built up his force by looking for recluses and combat officers and troops and stockpiled supplies. After that, considering that Kyoto is in a strategic location, he could've sent his top generals with an equal number of divisions each, one could go Northeast and stop after conquering...I think the clan head was the uncle of Masamune Date, second could go northwest and stop at North Mitsu I think it was called and the capital I'm sure of was Oshu, the home of the Date Clan. If not, they could have stopped at North Mitsu, third could go southeast and stop when they conquered Kyushu, and fourth could go southwest and stop at Shikoku. But, Mitsuhide had killed him before he could do it.... But, he had the largest territory and controlled much of Central Japan so it would've been only a matter of time, but you know then Mitsuhide came round and slayed him.
leakbrewergator
Joined Apr 2010 6,329 Posts | 6+ USCrusader13 said: Well, it's simple really. Nobunaga had destroyed the Azai and Azakura and the Imagawa. He could have recuperated, which he did in Kyoto. While recuperating, he could have built up his force by looking for recluses and combat officers and troops and stockpiled supplies. After that, considering that Kyoto is in a strategic location, he could've sent his top generals with an equal number of divisions each, one could go Northeast and stop after conquering...I think the clan head was the uncle of Masamune Date, second could go northwest and stop at North Mitsu I think it was called and the capital I'm sure of was Oshu, the home of the Date Clan. If not, they could have stopped at North Mitsu, third could go southeast and stop when they conquered Kyushu, and fourth could go southwest and stop at Shikoku. But, Mitsuhide had killed him before he could do it.... But, he had the largest territory and controlled much of Central Japan so it would've been only a matter of time, but you know then Mitsuhide came round and slayed him. Click to expand...Well, I don't think I would say it was simple. All of the above sounds nice and laid out, but A LOT of things had to go right for all of this to happen. Besides, HOW Nobunaga would have unified Japan wasn't really what I was getting at. It seemed to me you were saying that he would have done it in a much "better way" than Ieyasu would have. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post, but that's what I was interested in. C
Crusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+leakbrewergator said: Well, I don't think I would say it was simple. All of the above sounds nice and laid out, but A LOT of things had to go right for all of this to happen. Besides, HOW Nobunaga would have unified Japan wasn't really what I was getting at. It seemed to me you were saying that he would have done it in a much "better way" than Ieyasu would have. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post, but that's what I was interested in. Click to expand...No big deal. It's really quite trivial to me.... C
Crusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+leakbrewergator said: Well, I don't think I would say it was simple. All of the above sounds nice and laid out, but A LOT of things had to go right for all of this to happen. Besides, HOW Nobunaga would have unified Japan wasn't really what I was getting at. It seemed to me you were saying that he would have done it in a much "better way" than Ieyasu would have. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post, but that's what I was interested in. Click to expand...And yeah, a lot of things would have to go right. I've taken that into consideration and he probably would've made it work if you think about how strong and big his army would be after annexing Central Japan and since he had a lot of military and strategic ability he could've directed the army from afar or he could have sent strategists/recluses to do that. But you know, whichever comes first.
Naomasa298
Joined Apr 2010 51,305 Posts | 12,310+ Awesome Given the ambition of Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, even if Mitsuhide hadn't knocked him off, the moment he shuffled off his mortal coil, they would have taken their chance. History would have taken a similar path, unless Hideyoshi had died before Nobunaga. He was only 3 or so years younger. CCrusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+Naomasa298 said: Given the ambition of Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, even if Mitsuhide hadn't knocked him off, the moment he shuffled off his mortal coil, they would have taken their chance. History would have taken a similar path, unless Hideyoshi had died before Nobunaga. He was only 3 or so years younger. Click to expand...Well, to be fair, Hideyoshi was extremely loyal to Nobunaga. The only reason why he wanted and did unite the land was to fulfill Nobunaga's will and ambition. Ieyasu, if my knowledge of that time of the Sengoku Period is correct, was just as loyal to Nobunaga as Hideyoshi. Besides, even if he did try to rebel against the Oda, then he more than likely would've failed trying if you think about Nobunaga's top generals: Katsuie Shibata, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, Mitsuhide Akechi, Toshiie Maeda, and etc. just to name a few. I doubt Ieyasu could have overcame the Oda even if for some reason they were dead or they were not present at the battle for some reason. But. if Ieyasu had tried to rebel against Nobunaga, then it would be one of these three things: 1. It would be one hell of a battle/a bloody battle 2. It would end in a stalemate 3. Ieyasu'd get killed And I doubt Nobunaga would for some reason die just like that, because he was in his 40s so it seems unrealistic to me. Hideyoshi was in his late 30s so that wouldn't happened either. It's really an unrealistic theory to me.....
Naomasa298
Joined Apr 2010 51,305 Posts | 12,310+ AwesomeCrusader13 said: Well, to be fair, Hideyoshi was extremely loyal to Nobunaga. The only reason why he wanted and did unite the land was to fulfill Nobunaga's will and ambition. Ieyasu, if my knowledge of that time of the Sengoku Period is correct, was just as loyal to Nobunaga as Hideyoshi. Besides, even if he did try to rebel against the Oda, then he more than likely would've failed trying if you think about Nobunaga's top generals: Katsuie Shibata, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, Mitsuhide Akechi, Toshiie Maeda, and etc. just to name a few. I doubt Ieyasu could have overcame the Oda even if for some reason they were dead or they were not present at the battle for some reason. But. if Ieyasu had tried to rebel against Nobunaga, then it would be one of these three things: 1. It would be one hell of a battle/a bloody battle 2. It would end in a stalemate 3. Ieyasu'd get killed And I doubt Nobunaga would for some reason die just like that, because he was in his 40s so it seems unrealistic to me. Hideyoshi was in his late 30s so that wouldn't happened either. It's really an unrealistic theory to me..... Click to expand...Nobunaga would eventually die of old age, obviously. And both Ieyasu and Hideyoshi were astute politicians who would have made use of any factional rifts once Nobunaga was gone. They may have both been loyal to Nobunaga, but their loyalty didn't ..... their ambition, as the aftermath of Mitsuhide's rebellion clearly showed. There's no reason to think that they both wouldn't have made a grab for power. We already know that Mitsuhide's loyalties were suspect, and Katsuie was, in fact, defeated (although through no fault of his own) by Hideyoshi. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. C
Crusader13
Joined Oct 2012 17 Posts | 0+Naomasa298 said: Nobunaga would eventually die of old age, obviously. And both Ieyasu and Hideyoshi were astute politicians who would have made use of any factional rifts once Nobunaga was gone. They may have both been loyal to Nobunaga, but their loyalty didn't ..... their ambition, as the aftermath of Mitsuhide's rebellion clearly showed. There's no reason to think that they both wouldn't have made a grab for power. We already know that Mitsuhide's loyalties were suspect, and Katsuie was, in fact, defeated (although through no fault of his own) by Hideyoshi. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Click to expand...Yeah of course Nobunaga would die of old age...maybe some 20 - 40 years later! And within those 20-40 years, would Hideyoshi and Ieyasu not remain loyal and within those 20 - 40 years would Nobunaga not have united the land in those 20 - 40 years? Sure, they would have taken advantage of the panic and confusion, and how their ambition overcame their loyalty, that's reasonable and relatable . And yes, they would make a grab for power, but Hideyoshi probably wouldn't have lived long enough to do it and Ieyasu would have been as old as black pepper and most of his top generals would be dead too, if you take into consideration those 20 - 40 years if Nobunaga had been alive if he wasn't killed by Mitsuhide. Furthermore, I thought we were talking about if Mitsuhide hadn't died? Please except my apologies if that is so.
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