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Any advantage to H.265 for 1080p?- Thread starter WebHead
- Start date Oct 5, 2019
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WebHead
macrumors 6502a
Original poster Dec 29, 2004 610 204 Based on a quick check, HandBrake doesn’t appear to have an Apple device preset for H.265 with a 1080p source. Is this due to a lack of real benefit over H.264, or simply a lack of demand? Ccynics
macrumors G5
Jan 8, 2012 12,070 2,246 h265 (HEVC) is a more efficient video compression standard than h264 (AVC). So the advantage is its better at what its designed to do. A video using h265 can have higher quality with similar storage size or similar video quality using less storage space....OR anywhere in between when compared to h264. I grabbed a random video out of my photo library and ran it through Handbrake using both h264 and h265. I used all the default settings for both so its a MKV container using the avc1 and hevc compression standards.
(click image) With no noticeable quality difference the h265 is using ~27% less storage space. The disadvantage is compatibility. The above HEVC plays smooth as silk with VLC on my iMac which does not have hardware support for HEVC. However the same file played using VLC has too complex of an encoding for the AppleTV4 to decode. This is a screenshot through quicktime of my AppleTV4 output signal attempting to AppleTV4 
iPhone 6S (no true hardware support for HEVC) plays the HEVC video file fine in VLC. iPhone 6S 
On the AppleTV4 screen grab aside from the obvious compression blocks its playing at 5 fps with long pauses. This is especially bad since that is using the main profile, low resolution and only 30fps. The real disadvantage about that is consistency. I'm assuming VLC isn't optimized very well for tvOS 13. Or there is some other limitation there. I question the optimization of HandBrakes h265 implementation too. Relying on 3rd app devs to optimize their apps so your videos play isn't a good situation to be in. Another disadvantage is the time it takes the transcode the video using h265. Seems to take my MacBook about 2x as long with hardware support but it takes my iMac 5x as long without hardware support. My opinion on the matter, we've been working with h264 and 1080p for so long that we've made appropriate accommodation for its file size. Now with 4k HDR we need something more efficient and that is where h265 comes in... EDIT: The AppleTV 4 playback problem is VLC. I can see it dropping a couple frames but Infuse can playback that 1080p HEVC at a level that I would consider "watchable". Last edited: Oct 6, 2019 
WebHead
macrumors 6502a
Original poster Dec 29, 2004 610 204 Thanks for the extensive rundown! I’ve pretty much decided to encode all 1080p in H.265 going forward, as compatibility will only improve. I guess my dilemma is whether to go back and re-rip the content I already have in H.264. Ppriitv8
macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2011 4,125 705 EstoniaWebHead said: Thanks for the extensive rundown! I’ve pretty much decided to encode all 1080p in H.265 going forward, as compatibility will only improve. I guess my dilemma is whether to go back and re-rip the content I already have in H.264. Click to expand...Coultd be prohibitively expensive. You will notice that the cost of better efficiency is the enormously increased encoding complexity/time. Would only be manageable if you can achieve hardware encoding on your computer.
steve62388
macrumors 68040
Apr 23, 2013 3,159 2,071WebHead said: Thanks for the extensive rundown! I’ve pretty much decided to encode all 1080p in H.265 going forward, as compatibility will only improve. I guess my dilemma is whether to go back and re-rip the content I already have in H.264. Click to expand...I agree with your plan. Once done, it's done. Otherwise you will always wonder if it's worth going back to re-encode a few years from now.
WebHead
macrumors 6502a
Original poster Dec 29, 2004 610 204cynics said: However the same file played using VLC has too complex of an encoding for the AppleTV4 to decode. Click to expand...Just to clarify, you're using VLC on tvOS, not AirPlaying? Is the performance any better on the tvOS Computers app?
steve23094 said: I agree with your plan. Once done, it's done. Otherwise you will always wonder if it's worth going back to re-encode a few years from now. Click to expand...That's my thinking - though I guess one day there'll be a H.266 🤦♂️ P
priitv8
macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2011 4,125 705 EstoniaWebHead said: Just to clarify, you're using VLC on tvOS, not AirPlaying? Is the performance any better on the tvOS Computers app? Click to expand...From my experience (I do not use VLC anywhere), HEVC 1080p encodes play without problems via Computers app (AirPlay/Home Sharing).
WebHead
macrumors 6502a
Original poster Dec 29, 2004 610 204 Thanks, did you encode with Handbrake? What settings? Aarcher75
macrumors 68040
Jan 26, 2005 3,125 1,756 Oregon I encode all movies to h.265. DVD, bluray, 4k, doesn't matter. I have well over 1000 of them. Loaded up in my plex server and played on whatever I want. WebHead
macrumors 6502a
Original poster Dec 29, 2004 610 204 Do you use Handbrake's "Apple 2160p60 4K HEVC Surround" preset and it just stays at whatever the source resolution is? Aarcher75
macrumors 68040
Jan 26, 2005 3,125 1,756 OregonWebHead said: Do you use Handbrake's "Apple 2160p60 4K HEVC Surround" preset and it just stays at whatever the source resolution is? Click to expand...I don't use the presets. I setup my own. I don't change the resolution. I let it keep whatever the source is. I rip forced subtitles and if they exist I burn them in. For audio I set that to passthrough and I always keep the HD audio track only. So TrueHD or DTSMA passthrough. AC3 passthrough for DVD's. I use an MKV container. I use H.265 10bit. The CQ setting I use varies by the content. 20 for DVD, 18 for most bluray, 20 for animation. 16 for 4k. I've done frame by frame comparisons against the original to ensure I can't see a difference and these settings work for that. The speed I use depends on the computer I encode on. My PC uses an Intel 5820 6 core processor and my 2018 Mac Mini has the Intel 8700 6 core. Obviously the mini encodes much faster and with better video quality even at identical settings. So I use slow on the PC but fast on the mac. I almost always just use the mac now as the results are better. I'm not at my computer right now so I can't check but I do change some other settings. I'd have to tell you those later. I use plex media server running on my mac mini for serving all the content and it shares both inside and outside the home. On my ATV's I use infuse to watch content and on everything else I use plex to watch. Playback is flawless everywhere. I can even play full 4k disc rips, full size, not re-encoded, with infuse(served via plex) without issue. Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
priitv8
macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2011 4,125 705 Estoniaarcher75 said: I don't use the presets. I setup my own. I don't change the resolution. I let it keep whatever the source is. Click to expand...It's also worth mentioning, that HB does not upscale (ie. 1080 -> 2160 is not possible), only downscales. PS on your 8700-Mini, you should be able to use hardware encoding already?
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Ritsuka
Cancelled
Sep 3, 2006 1,464 969 Hardware HEVC encoders are worse than the x264 H.264 encoder usually. So I wouldn't reencode anything with them. HHDFan
Contributor
Jun 30, 2007 7,492 3,565WebHead said: hanks for the extensive rundown! I’ve pretty much decided to encode all 1080p in H.265 going forward, as compatibility will only improve. Click to expand...If you are saving DVD/Blu-Rays why are you encoding? Why not just keep the original files (.MKV or .t2s) and not have to worry about quality, dependent upon your player? That way you can always re-encode when a better encoder comes along or you discover some better encoding settings. Penalty is of course disk space, but disks are relatively cheap now. 16 TB drives prices are dropping.
steve62388
macrumors 68040
Apr 23, 2013 3,159 2,071Ritsuka said: Hardware HEVC encoders are worse than the x264 H.264 encoder usually. So I wouldn't reencode anything with them. Click to expand...You‘re correct, the software encoding is better. In my case I was processing on a NAS which had hardware encoding. The difference in speed was massive and I couldn’t justify the small variance in results versus the huge amount of time saved. Different story if you’re encoding on a desktop with a decent CPU though.
T'hain Esh Kelch
macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2001 6,699 7,781 DenmarkWebHead said: That's my thinking - though I guess one day there'll be a H.266 🤦♂️ Click to expand...It is almost here - But AV1 is likely to become the industry standard first though. But as there's always a newer codec around the corner, you'll likely be encoding your movies forever, unless you put your foot down at some point and stop with the current encodes you have.
archer75
macrumors 68040
Jan 26, 2005 3,125 1,756 Oregonpriitv8 said: It's also worth mentioning, that HB does not upscale (ie. 1080 -> 2160 is not possible), only downscales. PS on your 8700-Mini, you should be able to use hardware encoding already? Click to expand...hardware encoding on the mini(videotoolbox) doesn't support 10 bit which I need. A movie encode with my settings is only 2 hours on the mini(12 on my PC) so I'm not worried about it. The T2 chip could do it but as far as I know only apples software can access that for encoding. Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 P
priitv8
macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2011 4,125 705 Estoniaarcher75 said: hardware encoding on the mini(videotoolbox) doesn't support 10 bit which I need. A movie encode with my settings is only 2 hours on the mini(12 on my PC) so I'm not worried about it. The T2 chip could do it but as far as I know only apples software can access that for encoding. Click to expand...Don't know about T2, but the i9 inside my iMac can also do 10-bit HEVC encode in hardware. The Coffee Lake inside your Mini does as well. It's the apple VideoToolbox that does not yet take advantage of it. (Haven't upgraded to Catalina yet, btw). Looks like you are encoding for HDR10? What settings do you encode with and from what source material? A
archer75
macrumors 68040
Jan 26, 2005 3,125 1,756 Oregonpriitv8 said: Don't know about T2, but the i9 inside my iMac can also do 10-bit HEVC encode in hardware. The Coffee Lake inside your Mini does as well. It's the apple VideoToolbox that does not yet take advantage of it. (Haven't upgraded to Catalina yet, btw). Looks like you are encoding for HDR10? What settings do you encode with and from what source material? Click to expand...10 bit isn't tied to HDR. It reduces or eliminates banding in the picture. Also provides a better picture even from 8bit source material. And a smaller file size. So it's a good idea to use 10 bit encoding for everything. Handbrake doesn't support 10bit in videotoolbox. It's noted in their docs. Most of my encodes are from bluray. Some are from UHD discs. Some are DVD. I use MKV for the container. I rip forced subtitles and if there are any I burn them in the picture. Audio I only rip DTS-HD or TrueHD and set it to pass through. Video encoder is H.265 10bit Framerate is same as source and set to variable speed is fast tune is none profile is main 10 level is auto quality is set to constant quality. I use 20 for DVD or animation, 18 for bluray, 16 for UHD For additional options I have strong-intra-smoothing=0:rect=0 I am on Catalina and I just grabbed the handbrake nightly build and there's no change to videotoolbox. Still no 10bit. Last edited: Oct 11, 2019 C
cynics
macrumors G5
Jan 8, 2012 12,070 2,246WebHead said: Just to clarify, you're using VLC on tvOS, not AirPlaying? Is the performance any better on the tvOS Computers app? That's my thinking - though I guess one day there'll be a H.266 🤦♂️ Click to expand...Yes, I was playing the HEVC file natively (hosted on a NAS) via VLC on tvOS. If the video is transcoded client side on a client that can transcode it properly anything will play fine. You will run into the same problem if the client can decode it either though (my NAS for example is for storage only and can't decode HEVC). My point was to use caution, that was just 1 example but there are quiet a few variables. For example you can use HandBrake to encode a h264 video (AVC1) that is so complex that only high end desktops can decode the video in real time (1x playback speed). Mobile devices is a issue too. Its more power intensive to decode h265 and without hardware decoding its just a straight battery killer. Apple took this very seriously when it came to the iPhones using HEVC due to the negative implications. When you send (airdrop, message, etc) an HEVC video with an iPhone it will "convert" (transcode to h264) unless its a known device that is whitelisted to play HEVC. In most cases its converted to h264. I'm not trying to dissuade you (or anyone) from using HEVC however just keep the caveats in mind and test all possible scenarios out before converting an entire library. B
BODYBUILDERPAUL
Suspended
Feb 9, 2009 1,773 1,438 Barcelona From reading all of this, I pray that I never become an AV enthusiast when I get older. It sounds never ending with not much in the way of fun or even enjoyment. For the very few films that I watch, for now i'll stick with iTunes and Vimeo and my streaming options. If like you guys, I liked 4K BluRay or BluRays, i'd rather watch them on a Panasonic 9000 or Pioneer player rather than doing all of the IT route. Not sure why anyone would want to rip DVDs though - surely even a iTunes HD download would be a better experience - even in the USA where at least the audio plays at the correct speed/pitch from that old disc. HHDFan
Contributor
Jun 30, 2007 7,492 3,565BODYBUILDERPAUL said: Not sure why anyone would want to rip DVDs though Click to expand...With DVD's probably not much of a quality difference. However iTunes has relatively primitive organizing options. A media server adds a whole lot more - collections, playlists, display by date added, viewed, plays, bitrate, .... . Maybe not an issue with a just a few titles, but when your library grows into the hundreds or higher iTunes becomes unmanageable. For Blu-Rays (regular and 4K) it makes a quality difference. If the soundtrack is high-res (DTS-MA, for example) it is crippled.
opuscroakus
macrumors member
Aug 27, 2001 36 170WebHead said: That's my thinking - though I guess one day there'll be a H.266 🤦♂️ Click to expand...
H.266/VVC codec released as successor to H.265/HEVC, paving way for higher quality video capture in iOS - 9to5Mac
Today, after several years of research and standardization, the Fraunhofer Heinrich Hertz Institute announced the official release of the successor...
9to5mac.com 
timelessbeing
macrumors 6502
Oct 15, 2009 452 133 x265 encoding gives me the same size and quality as x264, except it takes 10x as long. I see no advantage. You must log in or register to reply here. Share: Facebook X (Twitter) Reddit Email Share Link Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads. Sign Up- Forums
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