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don't_bug_me Samba Member Joined: July 29, 2013Posts: 852Location: Ohio |  Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: |  | | First off as mentioned, you have an alternator that requires an external regulator, and it doesn't appear all the wires are hooked up on the Alt anyway unless you took some off while taking pics or working on this, your aftermarket regulator may or may not be any good, first you need to take it off, and look at the pin connections on it, and report back what they are labeled, they will have markings possibly similar to the alt or like this...S, F, I, A, either way, this is fine, take pics of the regulator pin connections if you can, I'll show you how to wire it up, this way you'll know if it or the alt or reg is bad and will need further testing before buying random parts. They may be good and only hooked up wrong or some bad wires, some of those wires look like crap, after 30-40 plus years the insulation gets brittle and wires break, corrode etc, I suggest running new wires to at least these components. First things first, remove reg, post pics, identify pins on reg._________________70 Street Baja http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=566113 "Necessity is the mother of invention" | |
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| don't_bug_me Samba MemberJoined: July 29, 2013Posts: 852Location: Ohio | | Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:10 am Post subject: | | If it is a later style regulator, this is how to wire it.  since it's hard to see in the diagram  _________________70 Street Baja http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=566113 "Necessity is the mother of invention" | |
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| Aircooled Barry Samba MemberJoined: May 16, 2010Posts: 11Location: St Paul, MN | | Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: Alternator test | | | Thanks don't bug me, george4888, and Ashman40 for your help. I meant to say I was working on it the other night and did a 30 minute test to check the coil for overheating. I then shut it off and did not leave it on after that. Thanks for your help though. I know it's not good for anything to leave the key on. I did it because on my other two air cooled vehicles the coil stayed at ambient temperatures after some use but this coil on the bug always get warm or hot even after proper wiring as in the diagram above. But i do have a goofy looking vr. The VR is pictured in the above photo. On the alternator photo I did connect the final blue wire to the d+ post which got the idiot light to work after i wired together the blue and green wires under seat. But I think I'll replace the VR because it looks like a cheap piece of crap and doesn't have the proper connections and I think it's bad to boot. After having the VR directly wired to the coil I think I'll be lucky if I do not have to replace the coil as well. I do believe the alternator is working because when I touch the red wire off the VR like it used to be to the + on the coil the voltage to the battery jumps right up to 13 and higher, the idle and driveabity gets wonky and the alternator begins to make a straining unhappy noise. So I rapidly disconnect that but interesting test._________________1976 Westfalia, 1980 Porsche 911sc | |
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george4888  Samba Member Joined: December 29, 2003Posts: 728Location: Hitchcock, Texas | | Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: Alternator wiring | | | There is NO test in the repair manuals which tells one to remove wires from the VR or the alternator or off the battery, to test the charging system. It looks like you have the wrong regulator and also, you have to have all four terminals on top of your alternator connected for it to work. That old style alternator was with many problems. If me, I would remove it and use it for a boat anchor, then buy a new two wire alternator and wire it up completely and be done with the charging problems. But, this is only what I would do. Have a great day. By the way, if you test an alternator by the engine running and removing the battery cables, to see it the engine continues to run ONLY with the alternator, that usually will burn up the alternator. That is no test in any repair manual._________________Home of Karacostas VW Repair "Keeping old VW's running like New!" Past NHRA and IHRA drag racer www.bayareavwclub.com 1969 Beetle, 1600cc engine "Life is hard, but it's harder when you are stupid." | |
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ashman40 Samba Member Joined: February 16, 2007Posts: 16780Location: North Florida, USA | | Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator test | | | Aircooled Barry wrote: | | I meant to say I was working on it the other night and did a 30 minute test to check the coil for overheating. I then shut it off and did not leave it on after that. Thanks for your help though. I know it's not good for anything to leave the key on. I did it because on my other two air cooled vehicles the coil stayed at ambient temperatures after some use but this coil on the bug always get warm or hot even after proper wiring as in the diagram above. | Hi Barry. You do realize that the function of the points is to cycle between grounding the coil and not grounding it? This means there is about a 50% chance when you stop the engine that the points will be closed. With the points closed, if you leave the ignition ON there is a direct path to ground through the ignition coil. It will heat up possibly damaging the coil and/or points. The 3-4 ohm ballast resistor in the coil limits the current so leaving the ignition ON for a minute or two is okay. But 30 minutes is just asking to toast something. When you tested your two other cars did you confirm if the points were open or closed when testing the coil temp? I'd bet you lucked out and the points were open. The coil would never heat up because no current is flowing through it. FYI, doing that "coil temp test" on an ignition system with electronic points would likely set you back $70 to replace the module as it would have likely over heated and fried. If you need to leave the ignition ON for any length of time, disconnect the points/module from the coil._________________AshMan40 --------------------------- '67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  } '75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot} '67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} | |
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| Aircooled Barry Samba MemberJoined: May 16, 2010Posts: 11Location: St Paul, MN | | Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: Alternator test | | | Ok. I'm done testing. On the other two cars I had been driving them so they were not just sitting there with the key on. At the least I think I will be looking for a new Bosch voltage regulator. I'll let you know if that works. Thanks._________________1976 Westfalia, 1980 Porsche 911sc | |
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| Aircooled Barry Samba MemberJoined: May 16, 2010Posts: 11Location: St Paul, MN | | Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: new voltage regulator | | | Hi all. I purchased a new voltage regulator for my externally regulated alternator. It's a German made brand called Beru and I am happy to see it has places for three electrical connections. Just like my alternator! And they are labeled so there will be no guesswork. I posted two pictures of it in the gallery under new voltage regulator. I'll be making a new wiring harness. Let you know if it works._________________1976 Westfalia, 1980 Porsche 911sc | |
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| ashman40 Samba MemberJoined: February 16, 2007Posts: 16780Location: North Florida, USA | | Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: | | | I saw the pics of your new VR. Again, it is not the OE or aftermarket replacement meant to work with your AL-78 alternator. I hope you can get it working. Did someone at the parts store suggest this was the proper replacement, or some generic replacement?_________________AshMan40 --------------------------- '67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road } '75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot} '67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} | |
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| Aircooled Barry Samba MemberJoined: May 16, 2010Posts: 11Location: St Paul, MN | | Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject: New voltage regulator | | | Yes this is the regulator the local metric auto parts guys recommended. I dont know if it is the proper or generic replacement but I assumed they found me the right one. The guys were shuffling through some books and paperwork and seemed to be researching the proper part for me. I also assumed the guys helping me at the store would not sell me a wrong part. I haven't tried it yet._________________1976 Westfalia, 1980 Porsche 911sc | |
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| Aircooled Barry Samba MemberJoined: May 16, 2010Posts: 11Location: St Paul, MN | | Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: | | | The latest update is that I connected up the new voltage regulator (beru) and I am only getting enough charge to keep the car running. The voltage will go up to about 12.7 at higher rpm(2000) but at idle or if the lights are on the voltage will drop below 12. The idiot light for the alternator never goes out. My blinker dash light is currently burned out but used to only flash once. My gas gauge is not working but needle goes to full if wire on sender is grounded. And I have a deep cycle battery in there._________________1976 Westfalia, 1980 Porsche 911sc | |
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Rugged SixtyEight Samba Member Joined: November 07, 2009Posts: 121Location: Apple Valley CA | | Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: | | Need a little help so the green goes to D+?  _________________1968 Bug | |
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| ashman40 Samba MemberJoined: February 16, 2007Posts: 16780Location: North Florida, USA | | Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: | | | Rugged SixtyEight wrote: | | Need a little help so the green goes to D+? | Yes. And the other end of the green wire ends at the Gen bulb holder in the speedo._________________AshMan40 --------------------------- '67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road } '75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot} '67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} | |
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Stuntmanus Samba Member Joined: December 24, 2006Posts: 303Location: Hungary | | Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:14 am Post subject: | | | ashman40 wrote: | | Rugged SixtyEight wrote: | | Need a little help so the green goes to D+? | Yes. And the other end of the green wire ends at the Gen bulb holder in the speedo. | So there is an other interesting story, when you disconnect the D+ green wire and the GEN light still on in the speedo. And the voltage is 11.9 V when the engine is running, so the charging is pretty low. I had changed the whole alternator and nothing happened. Does the D+ got some ground elsewhere? I was burning a lot of time to find out the reason behind the low charging current/voltage. I am fed up. _________________Stuntmanus 1974 VW 1303 RS 2110 1972 VW 1302 "Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" | |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician Joined: October 04, 2011Posts: 3386Location: Memphis | | Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: | | | Stuntmanus wrote: | | So there is an other interesting story, when you disconnect the D+ green wire and the GEN light still on in the speedo. And the voltage is 11.9 V when the engine is running, so the charging is pretty low. I had changed the whole alternator and nothing happened. Does the D+ got some ground elsewhere? I was burning a lot of time to find out the reason behind the low charging current/voltage. I am fed up. | D+ runs straight to the alternator and should not have an electrical ground anywhere else. 11.9V indicates battery voltage only, and no charging from the alternator. You will get about 14V output when the alternator is running. Follow the wire back from the light on the dash and see if it's chafed or spliced anywhere! Or, in google translate... D + fut egyenesen a generátor, és nincs őrölt bárhol máshol. 11.9V jelzi az akkumulátor feszültsége csak, és nem a töltés a generátor. Kapsz a 14V kimenetet, amikor a generátor fut. Kövesse a vörösrézdrót vissza a fény a műszerfal, és nézd meg, ez idegesített, vagy lapolva bárhol!_________________Robert in Memphis Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread Engine rebuild thread If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. | |
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| Stuntmanus Samba MemberJoined: December 24, 2006Posts: 303Location: Hungary | | Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: | | | scrivyscriv wrote: | | Stuntmanus wrote: | | So there is an other interesting story, when you disconnect the D+ green wire and the GEN light still on in the speedo. And the voltage is 11.9 V when the engine is running, so the charging is pretty low. I had changed the whole alternator and nothing happened. Does the D+ got some ground elsewhere? I was burning a lot of time to find out the reason behind the low charging current/voltage. I am fed up. | D+ runs straight to the alternator and should not have an electrical ground anywhere else. 11.9V indicates battery voltage only, and no charging from the alternator. You will get about 14V output when the alternator is running. Follow the wire back from the light on the dash and see if it's chafed or spliced anywhere! Or, in google translate... D + fut egyenesen a generátor, és nincs őrölt bárhol máshol. 11.9V jelzi az akkumulátor feszültsége csak, és nem a töltés a generátor. Kapsz a 14V kimenetet, amikor a generátor fut. Kövesse a vörösrézdrót vissza a fény a műszerfal, és nézd meg, ez idegesített, vagy lapolva bárhol! | Thanks for the answer, i try and trace down the wire back to the dash lamp. As I understand, if i disoonect from the alternator, the light should not lit at all when the ignition is on, since should not have ground at all. I do hope i can translate English better than google translate... LOL._________________Stuntmanus 1974 VW 1303 RS 2110 1972 VW 1302 "Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" | |
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| ashman40 Samba MemberJoined: February 16, 2007Posts: 16780Location: North Florida, USA | | Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: | | This diagram from Speedy Jim's site may help some:  It is meant to show how to wire a Gen and Oil light for a Dune Buggy, but it shows that both lamps are powered from a 12v+ fuse. For the Gen lamp, the blue wire runs from the bulb to the D+ terminal. With the ignition ON and engine OFF, current is flowing from the fuse through the Gen lamp and to the alternator where the circuit is grounded and the Gen lamp should be ON. With the ignition ON and the engine RUNNING, the alternator will generate current and output through both the B+ and D+ terminals. B+ will recharge the battery and power the cars electrical systems. D+ will literally, "push back" the current coming from the Gen lamp and current flow through the D+ circuit will stop. There will still be 12v on the wire, but with 12v+ being fed into both ends of the D+ circuit no current flow happens and the Gen light is OFF. There may actually be some small current flow in either direction, but not enough to light the Gen lamp. This is why some car's Gen light is dimly lit at idle, one side of the other has a lower voltage and a small amount of current starts flowing. This is why the Gen light is ON before the engine starts and OFF after the alternator is spinning._________________AshMan40 --------------------------- '67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road } '75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot} '67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} | |
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| Stuntmanus Samba MemberJoined: December 24, 2006Posts: 303Location: Hungary | | Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: | | | ashman40 wrote: | | This diagram from Speedy Jim's site may help some: It is meant to show how to wire a Gen and Oil light for a Dune Buggy, but it shows that both lamps are powered from a 12v+ fuse. For the Gen lamp, the blue wire runs from the bulb to the D+ terminal. With the ignition ON and engine OFF, current is flowing from the fuse through the Gen lamp and to the alternator where the circuit is grounded and the Gen lamp should be ON. With the ignition ON and the engine RUNNING, the alternator will generate current and output through both the B+ and D+ terminals. B+ will recharge the battery and power the cars electrical systems. D+ will literally, "push back" the current coming from the Gen lamp and current flow through the D+ circuit will stop. There will still be 12v on the wire, but with 12v+ being fed into both ends of the D+ circuit no current flow happens and the Gen light is OFF. There may actually be some small current flow in either direction, but not enough to light the Gen lamp. This is why some car's Gen light is dimly lit at idle, one side of the other has a lower voltage and a small amount of current starts flowing. This is why the Gen light is ON before the engine starts and OFF after the alternator is spinning. | Thanks for this clarification by this simple graph. In the meantime I repaired the car, there was a ground at the speedo, made the gen light constantly lit and made the charging voltage very low or nothing. This is a 1303 and the whole dash and speedo is a PITA, I do hate it. Thanks again._________________Stuntmanus 1974 VW 1303 RS 2110 1972 VW 1302 "Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" | |
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| rickygtattoo13 Samba MemberJoined: May 06, 2014Posts: 43 | | Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: | | i was looking at mine the other day and this has been like this for years but now i dont think its right  | |
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| ashman40 Samba MemberJoined: February 16, 2007Posts: 16780Location: North Florida, USA | | Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: | | | rickygtattoo13 wrote: | | i was looking at mine the other day and this has been like this for years but now i dont think its right | That looks like your car originally came with an externally regulated alternator and had been converted to an internally regulated one. The external VR alternators had four wires: B+ : heavy gauge red wire. Regulated 13.8v+ output to battery and electrical harness. VR wires D+ : red wire. Lower current regulated output from alternator similar to B+ but meant to provide the VR a voltage source to maintain the field circuit DF : green field circuit wire from VR. Regulates the alternator output. D- : brown ground wire between the VR and alternator so they share a common reference ground. You should probably find that the red wire connected to the D+ terminal is spliced to the blue #61 wire under the rear seat. This runs all the way to the Gen light on the speedo. The PO just used one of the old VR wires to extend the #61 circuit to the alternator._________________AshMan40 --------------------------- '67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road } '75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot} '67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} | |
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| rickygtattoo13 Samba MemberJoined: May 06, 2014Posts: 43 | | Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: | | | so are those wires (green and brown) fine to be like this? should they be linked to something in the engine bay? like i said everything seams to work fine | |
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