Budget 4k Camcorder For Family?: Digital Video Talk Forum - DPReview
All forumsDigital Video TalkChange forum Budget 4k camcorder for family? Started Feb 21, 2016 | Discussions
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My budget is $1,000 just looking for the best video quality i can get at that price range. Uses would be family vacations and just capturing memories of my family before they are gone.
I'm looking at the Sony FDR-AX53 and Panasonic HC-WXF991K. The sony does XAVC S at 100 Mbps vs the Panasonic MP4 72 Mbps. The Panasonic is f/ 1.8 - f/ 3.6 vs the sony f/ 2 - f/ 3.8
I would guess the Panasonic would do slightly better in low light. There does not seem to be much differance in the up coming models vs last years.
My TV is only 1080p but when i see 4k video there is so much more detail even on a 1080p screen. Will buy a 4k TV someday.
Will keep the videos on my PC to watch later on as i have been doing with my 1080p videos.
Thanks
David9723's gear list:David9723's gear list Sony a7 IV Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DG DN Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS Reply to thread Reply with quote Complain Duke Sweden • Regular Member • Posts: 415 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 21, 2016Well, B&H Photo is selling a Panasonic G7 for $579.00 It's 4k. You may want to check specs and reviews to see if it's appropriate for you. At half what your budget is, if it works for you that's money for lenses.
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain OP David9723 • Regular Member • Posts: 101 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to Duke Sweden • Feb 21, 2016Was looking more for a camcorder as i have a 70D with a lot of money spent on canon lenses. Wish canon would do 4k without spending thousands.
David9723's gear list:David9723's gear list Sony a7 IV Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DG DN Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain NAwlins Contrarian • Forum Pro • Posts: 10,465 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 22, 2016I'm looking at the Sony FDR-AX53 and Panasonic HC-WXF991K
The way I look at it is, you don't want to spend the money ($1700) to step up to the much larger sensor with the Sony AX-100, and pretty much all of the other 4k camcorders have sensors of about "1/2.3-inch", so lenses and recording formats might be a worthwhile basis of comparison.
Sony AX33, 10x zoom, f/1.8-3.4, 4k at 30p and 24p with XAVC-S & AVCHD, $798
Sony AX53, 20x zoom, f/2.0-3.8, 4k at 30p and 24p with XAVC-S & AVCHD, $998
Panasonic VX870, 20x zoom, f/1.8-3.6, 4k at 30p and MP4 only, $798
Panasonic VX970, 20x zoom, f/1.8-3.6, 4k at 30p and MP4 only, $779
Panasonic VX981, 20x zoom, f/1.8-3.6, 4k at 30p and 24p but MP4 only, $900
Panasonic VX991, 20x zoom, f/1.8-3.6, 4k at 30p and 24p but MP4 only, $1000
So how much is XAVC-S worth to you, over MP4? To me it would be a consideration. How much is a 20x zoom worth to you, over a 10x zoom? Do you care about the 24p option? The differences between f/1.8 and f/2.0, and between f/3.4 and f/3.8--each 0.3 stop--are trivial, and probably less significant than the differences between sensor technologies.
NAwlins Contrarian's gear list:NAwlins Contrarian's gear list Nikon Coolpix S30 Nikon Coolpix AW110 Canon PowerShot S120 Sony RX100 IV Sony a9 +7 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain OP David9723 • Regular Member • Posts: 101 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to NAwlins Contrarian • Feb 22, 2016What is the differance in XAVC-S vs MP4? XAVC-S has a higher data rate so one would think the video looks better.
David9723's gear list:David9723's gear list Sony a7 IV Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DG DN Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain SystemAgnostic • Contributing Member • Posts: 867 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 22, 2016For shooting in good light, I would get a Sony AX33 or AX53. They both have the BOSS system for stabilization. Unstable video is basically unusable. So for casual use (not on a tripod) in good light , I love my Sony 1080p camcorder with BOSS.
But I don't shoot with it in low light. For that, I want a bigger sensor. Once you go bigger sensor with a fast lens, the small depth of field makes focus considerably more difficult. But for that use I use a Panasonic LX100, or you can consider a G7 to which you can adapt your Canon lenses. You also can get creative with depth of field. You could get the AX100, but that is a lot more.
So you have to decide what is more important to you - low light shooting or more casual camcorder activities. Ideally you may want both, just choose which is more important now and get that first. Since you have a 70D, I would consider continuing to use that when shooting indoors in low light, and get a 4k camcorder for sunlight use. Better yet - after you get the camcorder, compare the output when shooting indoors at night to your 70D and report back.
SystemAgnostic's gear list:SystemAgnostic's gear list Panasonic LX100 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85 Panasonic GH5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 45-150mm F4-5.6 ASPH Mega OIS Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 35-100mm F2.8 OIS +6 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain NAwlins Contrarian • Forum Pro • Posts: 10,465 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 22, 2016Both the codec used and the data rate affect how good the video looks. In other words, it is possible for video with even a lower data rate to look better than video with a higher data rate when the former uses a better codec.
The codec also affects how nicely the video works with editing software.
It's my understanding that XAVC-S is substantially more efficient than MP4. In other words, it gets more out of its bits.
NAwlins Contrarian's gear list:NAwlins Contrarian's gear list Nikon Coolpix S30 Nikon Coolpix AW110 Canon PowerShot S120 Sony RX100 IV Sony a9 +7 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain
Sean Nelson • Forum Pro • Posts: 16,875 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to NAwlins Contrarian • Feb 22, 2016 NAwlins Contrarian wrote:
So how much is XAVC-S worth to you, over MP4?
XAVC-S and MP4 both use the H.264 codec. XAVC-S, like AVCHD, has a set of predefined profile levels, frame rates, resolutions and bit rates to ensure standardization. MP4 does not. The kind of encoding done by a camera that records in MP4 depends entirely on what the manufacturer has decided to implement.
So there's no inherent advantage of XAVC-S over MP4. Whether XAVC-S on one camera is better than MP4 on the same or another camera depends entirely on how the manufacturer of the MP4 camera has decided to implement the encoder.
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain lancespring • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974 Speculation In reply to David9723 • Feb 22, 2016 1David9723 wrote:
My budget is $1,000 just looking for the best video quality i can get at that price range. Uses would be family vacations and just capturing memories of my family before they are gone.
I'm looking at the Sony FDR-AX53 and Panasonic HC-WXF991K. The sony does XAVC S at 100 Mbps vs the Panasonic MP4 72 Mbps. The Panasonic is f/ 1.8 - f/ 3.6 vs the sony f/ 2 - f/ 3.8
I would guess the Panasonic would do slightly better in low light. There does not seem to be much differance in the up coming models vs last years.
.
No actual data exists to back up such a conclusion. Both of these camcorders are still about 3 week away from being available to purchase in stores.
In another month we should have reviews of these camcorders coming out. Along with some actual user feedback. So we will know a lot more by the end of March - early April. For now, it is really as much speculation as anything else, as far as how they will compare.
So please don't pre-order. Wait for reviews and owner feedback to come out. And by all means, download PDF's of the manuals for both camcorders when they become available. You will find reading the manuals for the camcorders will give you far better insight into them than reading any advertising for it.
.
lancespring's gear list:lancespring's gear list Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Nikon D600 +1 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain
Joe Ogiba • Veteran Member • Posts: 4,627 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 24, 2016 1 David9723 wrote:
What is the differance in XAVC-S vs MP4? XAVC-S has a higher data rate so one would think the video looks better.
Click on download then download the original 271mb 3840x2160 UHD video from the Sony RX100 IV pocket camera with XAVC-S in the Vimeo link:
https://vimeo.com/156416373
Joe Ogiba's gear list:Joe Ogiba's gear list Sony RX10 III Sony a7R Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Samsung NX1 Sony a6300 +1 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain lancespring • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to NAwlins Contrarian • Feb 24, 2016NAwlins Contrarian wrote:
It's my understanding that XAVC-S is substantially more efficient than MP4. In other words, it gets more out of its bits.
.This is a misunderstanding on your part. Both the consumer XAVC-S and the professional XAVC are subsets of the MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVC. So it is still MP4 and H.264. Sony is simply using a high level of the codec in order to ensure good quality.
If a person wants really more efficient video, then they need to step up to the new H.265
XAVC-S is also limited to 8 bit recording. The more advanced XAVC is also capable of doing 10 bit and 12 bit.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/getting_on_board_with_the_4k_revolution
This page really does a great job explaining the differences, and has a handy chart for comparing the different versions of XAVC, and how they differ:
http://www.divergentmedia.com/blog/understand-xavc/
.
lancespring's gear list:lancespring's gear list Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Nikon D600 +1 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain OP David9723 • Regular Member • Posts: 101 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to Duke Sweden • Feb 26, 2016I wish i could rent a 4k camcorder but they only have the higher end models that i can not afford. Last time i rented a Canon G30 and was not impressed. I thought my 70D did better.
Canon has been disappointing with there lack of 4k. I would buy the 80D if it did 4k but of course Canon didn't include that. I'm sure they will have 4k someday but i need it sooner than 2-4 years from now.
When i go back and watch VHS tapes that i converted to my PC it looks so bad. I keep thinking 4k will still look good 10 years from now. Unfortunately my father does not have long.
David9723's gear list:David9723's gear list Sony a7 IV Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DG DN Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain NAwlins Contrarian • Forum Pro • Posts: 10,465 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Feb 26, 2016When i go back and watch VHS tapes that i converted to my PC it looks so bad. I keep thinking 4k will still look good 10 years from now.
For much video viewing, I think we have passed the point of diminishing returns.Typical VHS resolutions were effectively around 300 (horizontal)* or less x 480, and that was interlaced. Yes, VHS's horizontal resolution is lower than its vertical resolution. So "Full HD" (1920x1080) provides around 14 x the detail of VHS, and going to UHD (3840x2160, what most slightly-wrongly call 4K) is a much smaller increase, 4x.
The limits of 'perfect' human vision are such that you cannon even see Full HD resolution on my main TV from my usual viewing position. For something to look substantially better than Full HD, we'd need either really huge screens--more than my wife would tolerate, anyway--and/or really close viewing positions.
Where you can see more than Full HD is more in the computer monitor-type setting. For me, a comfortable viewing distance from my 23.6 inch (60 cm) monitor is about 20 inches (51 cm) or a little more. At that distance, the often-accepted limit of human vision (0.5 minute-of-angle) would mean you can see about 343 ppi (13.5 ppmm). So the screen could theoretically look better until somewhere around 7000 x 4000 pixels! So I think a UHD or "4K" monitor should provide a worthwhile improvement.
That's not to say that UHD or 4K capture won't provide visible advantages. For a variety of reasons, most devices don't capture their theoretical resolutions, and more pixels mean better performance with things like digital stabilization in post.
But I suspect that really good Full HD provides almost all the performance most people will be able to see on regular TVs at regular viewing distances.
NAwlins Contrarian's gear list:NAwlins Contrarian's gear list Nikon Coolpix S30 Nikon Coolpix AW110 Canon PowerShot S120 Sony RX100 IV Sony a9 +7 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain cedarprod • New Member • Posts: 3 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to NAwlins Contrarian • Apr 5, 2016I just received my Panasonic HC-wxf991. I am very impressed with this little camcorder. I bought it to shoot on the fly B-roll when you only have one shot at getting it. Otherwise I will use my GH4. I have had many Panasonic "Family" camcorders as my kids grew up, but I have never seen one with an IA that works so perfectly like this. Auto focus is 99.9 spot on and the auto Iris is really strong too. The picture quality is fantastic with that Panny color, and from what I see minimal rolling shutter and aliasing. Plastic feels a little cheap and I wish the image stabilizer was a little better when holding a closeup with no movement in the frame, but when just shooting everyday life the stabilizer is really strong. Overall, it doesn't get much better than this. As far as the Sony 53. I wish I had one to try. Spec wise it seems to read better, but besides that new floating design stabilizer and higher bit rate it seems that it is on par with the Panasonic. Hope this helps.
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain BJBBJB • Regular Member • Posts: 144 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to cedarprod • May 29, 2016I have been waiting for full reviews and perhaps even a comparison of these two camcorders since they are now out. Unless I am missing something I still don't see any camera website reviews of these cameras. Are there any out there I have missed?
I have similar needs as the OP and I agreed with the recommendation posted to wait until they were in the wild. But still have not seen much out there.
Thanks,
BJBBJB
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain spanker • New Member • Posts: 13 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to BJBBJB • May 30, 2016How's your French and do you have 5€ to spare ? I bought a copy from here :
http://www.magazinevideo.com/test-en-ligne/sony-fdr-ax53/34907.htm
Slashcam doesn't have AX53 up yet but it's free when they do:
https://www.slashcam.de/4K-Kamera-Vergleich.html
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain BJBBJB • Regular Member • Posts: 144 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to spanker • May 30, 2016LOL, that's great. Whatever it takes!
Thanks,
BJBBJB
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain OP David9723 • Regular Member • Posts: 101 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to BJBBJB • Jun 12, 2016I'm still looking into the Sony FDRAX53 it looks like it will do the job fine for my use.
Is the 100Mbps only available in the XAVC S? Does that have ,mp4 file extension? I'm wondering for the software i use.
As i understand it the image stabilization does not work in 4K? only in 1080p.
David9723's gear list:David9723's gear list Sony a7 IV Sony FE 85mm F1.4 GM Sony FE 24-105mm F4 Sigma 14-24mm F2.8 DG DN Sigma 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain Sagittarius • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,456 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to David9723 • Jun 12, 2016David9723 wrote:
I'm still looking into the Sony FDRAX53 it looks like it will do the job fine for my use.
Is the 100Mbps only available in the XAVC S?
Yes
Does that have ,mp4 file extension? I'm wondering for the software i use.
Yes
As i understand it the image stabilization does not work in 4K? only in 1080p.
It works up to the second best called Active in 4K which is excelent. The best Intelligent Active works only in 1080. All are BOSS.
-- hide signature --Best regards
Sagittarius's gear list:Sagittarius's gear list Nikon Z6 II Nikon Z7 II Nikon Z9 Nikon Z8 Nikon Z 14-30mm F4 +6 more Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain BJBBJB • Regular Member • Posts: 144 Re: Budget 4k camcorder for family? In reply to Sagittarius • Jun 13, 2016Sagittarius,
If I could bother you with one more question. Have you tried the AX53 on a tripod? I am tracking a thread on a Sony forum (was not sure if it was okay to post the thread) where some users are noting that there is excessive shake from the camera when used on a tripod whether BOSS is on or off. While panning, making adjustments on the camera, etc.
I know it implies the tripod is not good but many are noticing it. I need to do some testing as I record some events with a tripod. My photography background tells me you turn off all stabilization when using a tripod. Not sure about BOSS.
BJB
Reply Reply with quote Reply to thread Complain
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