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ChessPub Forum › General › General Chess › Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi?

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Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? (Read 23707 times)

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #13 - 10/24/08 at 15:55:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks to the influence of a close friend who was Chinese, I played both xiangqi and wei-chi (the Chinese name for go) fairly frequently in my youth. I think that xiangqi is a very fine game, full of excitement and surprises. It's true that it's a more tactical, "open" game than chess. As many will be aware, go is the deepest of the traditional games, probably the deepest game ever invented. I took the trouble to buy some go books (there was one by Edward Lasker) and study them. But eventually I gave up playing go because it exhausted me and made my head hurt. I have profound admiration for those with mastery of this game, which is an intellectual achievement more impressive than that of chess, in my view. It's unfortunate that the literature of these games, particularly of xianqi, is rather scant in the West.
	The Great Oz has spoken!
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dfan God Member Offline "When you see a bad move, look for a better one" Posts: 766 Location: Boston Joined: 10/04/05	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #12 - 10/24/08 at 14:44:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	chk wrote on 10/23/08 at 16:14:46: One question though for the experienced ones: I've learned how to count 'territory'. Is this the best format to use for internet games etc. or shall I switch to 'area' counting? I can never remember which is called which, but use the one where you get credit for the empty points you surround but not for your own stones. It's easier because there's less to count, and it's what your opponents will use.
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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #11 - 10/23/08 at 16:14:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've visited the 'senseis' site and learned about the rules. I've also downloaded the 'igowin' application and tried some games against the computer. GO is certainly interesting, though you definitely need to play some games in order to understand what's going on.. (just reading at first only got me confused I'm afraid..) One question though for the experienced ones: I've learned how to count 'territory'. Is this the best format to use for internet games etc. or shall I switch to 'area' counting? The cool thing I'm trying for the moment is this concept of the 2 eyes
	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #10 - 10/22/08 at 07:19:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting comments - I guess I'll have to give it a shot sooner or later and see how it 'feels'.. Thank you for the links and ideas.
	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Geof_Strayer YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 39 Location: Los_Angeles Joined: 04/08/05	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #9 - 10/22/08 at 02:42:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have just taken up Go recently at the suggestion of a co-worker who plays. Unlike dfan (whose at 4 kyu is very much stronger) I am a complete beginner. (I just finished reading my first Go book a few weeks ago.) However, I have played some games on the internet (there are several good free Go servers), downloaded a free Go engine, and have done some exploring of various Go sites on the internet (the Sensei's Library at http://senseis.xmp.net is one great free site with very useful stuff for beginners), so I will venture a few fairly random comments comparing Go with chess. First, as dfan indicates, it is very different from chess. It is a turn-based game, there are White and Black "pieces" called stones, and you can sometimes capture your opponent's stones. Also, conceptually a game can be divided into three stages: the opening, the middle game, and the endgame. However, other than those few things in common with chess, Go really is basically completely different. This makes it very fresh for chessplayers. Second, there is a very natural handicap system in Go that lets you play against much stronger players on fairly even terms. For example, if dfan were to give me a 20-stone handicap, we could probably make a game of it even though the difference between us in strength is probably (in chess terms) close to 1000 ELO points. This handicap system is very useful because it makes it more challenging (and therefore more interesting) for stronger players to play against weaker players. Third, my limited experience on the Go servers so far indicates that Go players tend to be very civil and helpful. One of my main peeves about chess for many years has been the relatively high concentration of dysfunctional egos and personalities in the chess world. (Most chessplayers are, of course, excellent sportsmen/sportswomen. But the exceptions seem to be dramatic and fairly numerous, especially on the internet chess servers.) So far, I have had only pleasant experiences on the Go servers. Fourth, at least in the United States (and I am assuming in most places other than China, Korea, and Japan), there are relatively few active OTB Go players and tournaments when compared with chess. I am not really sure, though, whether this should be considered a major disadvantage. However, as a practical matter an active OTB Go player would probably need to do more travelling than an active OTB chessplayer. Fifth, although the number of Go books published in English is only a tiny fraction of the number of Chess books, there are still a number and the few I have seen so far should be fairly accessible to chessplayers, who are used to learning from books which analyze instructive positions. Sixth, the strongest Go computer engines play at the level of a strong amateur and still lose handicap games to Go professionals. To some extent, the advent of strong chess computers has diminished my enjoyment of chess (there are fewer mysteries now), and this doesn't appear to be a problem yet in Go. Overall, I have been enjoying the early stages of learning to play Go very much. It's a game with a rich and ancient culture which is interesting to learn something about; it's very geometrical and therefore many of its basic concepts are fairly intuitive; it seems to place more of an emphasis on a kind of sideways strategical thinking than chess; and it seems relatively accessible to chessplayers while remaining almost completely different from chess. All that having been said, first loves are often the strongest and I doubt it will ever replace chess for me. But a little variety can be nice.
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FischerTal Senior Member Offline I Love Chess Books Posts: 307 Location: England Joined: 04/11/08	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #8 - 10/20/08 at 17:20:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	chk wrote on 10/20/08 at 09:05:11: And as dfan states above, the thing I haven't decided yet is whether it is better to continue focusing in only one of these games due to time constraints.. The more I learn chess the more I love it - but it also requires more & more of my time.. I have found spreading one self over different games is more stimulating. Of course it depends on your goals. though for me chess has the most interesting culture and literature
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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #7 - 10/20/08 at 12:40:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well the luck in terms of the cards you're dealt is eliminated - you just score against other people playing the same deal. There's still lots of 'luck' though! It's a game of imperfect information after all. The trick is that much of the 'luck' is controllable long term. The best players still win very consistently. With China's population and level of government organisation in such matters I'd think they can manage to be rather good at everything I guess they might be emphasising global games like Chess/Bridge ahead of Go for the prestige. No idea though.
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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #6 - 10/20/08 at 09:05:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for your answers - these games are surely interesting stuff! The bridge suggestion was also an interesting one as it involves teamplay and as I hear there's zero luck element re official bridge tournaments. What I am also intrigued is that China lately has such strong teams in chess. So is chess gaining in popularity there over Xiangqi and GO? And as dfan states above, the thing I haven't decided yet is whether it is better to continue focusing in only one of these games due to time constraints.. The more I learn chess the more I love it - but it also requires more & more of my time..
	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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takodori YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2 Joined: 10/18/08	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #5 - 10/20/08 at 05:51:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	In addition, I think the discussion titled "Shogi for Chess Players" @boardgamegeek is worth while reading to compare chess with shogi. It' can be found at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/309248
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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #4 - 10/19/08 at 20:24:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Shogi might start positionally but it certainly doesn't end that way! With dropping on captured pieces you never get endgames like chess - instead you get races between a pair of massive sacrifical kind hunts.... All those single square moving pieces can be quite lethal in combination when dropped around an exposed king. Worth looking at if just for the different mindset. Go is just very deep. I'd love to play it but no chance of doing it justice really. For a second serious game - in the west anyway! - I'd have to second the mention of bridge. In the UK at least it's about as well organised as chess so plenty of clubs, congresses, etc etc. Also very usefully there are opponents of all sorts of standard to play and learn against. Online isn't quite the same. In China/Japan I believe that Go basically rules?
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takodori YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2 Joined: 10/18/08	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #3 - 10/19/08 at 01:09:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	One of the biggest appealing points which chess-like games have and Go does not is manipulating various pieces of different abilities. Chess pieces are 6 kinds in function, Xiangqi pieces are 7 kinds, and Shogi pieces are 8 kinds while Go piece is single kind. The rate of draw in shogi is significantly low even in the games among top professional players. It's about 1 or 2 %. So if you like to play a chesslike game which is not likely to end with draw, shogi is worth while trying. Due to the rules of reuse of captured pieces and the higher rates of promotable pieces to all kinds, the number of move option in shogi does not lessen or even increases in the endgame. On the other hand, it goes smaller and smaller as a game goes by in Chess, Xiangqi and Go. Thanks to this feature, I think shogi is the most dramatic game to play or watch that a big reversal often happens in the endgame. In other words, the last 5 minutes of shogi are the most interesting of the chesslike-games and Go. I agree it used to be difficult to find an opponent in shogi. But no more. You can easily find shogi oppnoent in the following on-line game sites(Since this is my first post, I cannot post active link, please google to reach them). PlayOK.com Brainking.com
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FischerTal Senior Member Offline I Love Chess Books Posts: 307 Location: England Joined: 04/11/08	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #2 - 10/18/08 at 22:28:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	I like Chinese chess and after all the future is with china. The strongest pieces are Rooks and Knights so I found I could adjst to it quickly. Found shogi quite slow with a strategic buildup. the trouble is finding partners to play against. Go I find not so satisfyingly defined as compared with the chess games. Though I agree with the guy who talked about battles occring all over the board. The game I strongly reccomend is Bridge - it has a large literature and the partnership element is a good change from the quite isolating game of chess, also it is easy to find a game there are clubs all over the place.
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dfan God Member Offline "When you see a bad move, look for a better one" Posts: 766 Location: Boston Joined: 10/04/05	Re: Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? Reply #1 - 10/18/08 at 02:27:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Go is an amazing game and I highly recommend it. It is not some sort of "chess variant" like shogi or xiangqi, so if you study it you will be exposed to more new concepts. By splitting my time between the two games perhaps I have passed up a chance to become more than mediocre at either one (1800 in chess, 4 kyu in go), but I've really enjoyed learning both.
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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Chess, GO, Shogi or Xiangqi? 10/17/08 at 11:12:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think there's been some faint discussion about this topic in some of the past threads (iirc sth on chess variants?), but thought of starting a fresh topic anyway. I am a big fun of chess and was never really impressed by any of the western chess variants. Moreover, I've liked from time to time some of the best computer strategy games but the appeal did not last either. There's only one area I haven't explored yet, so here we go: 1) Chess: Our good ol' chess! Seems well balanced and with an enduring appeal to me. Only annoyed a bit about the computer era and the super-preparation it requires sometimes.. I generally like balanced games that present both tactical & strategic subtleties. 2) Shogi (aka 'Japanese chess'): I read this is in general more positional than chess. The pieces move slowly and you can parachute captured pieces back into the game. It generally seems not so appealing to me, however I hear that in terms of strategy it may surpass chess. 3) Xiangqi (aka 'Chinese chess'): I read this is more tactical than chess and usually ends up in games that resemble the 'open games' of chess. I'm not addicted to chess tactics, hence this also made no initial impression to me in comparison to chess. 4) GO: I'm mostly intrigued by this one. It has seemingly simple rules, however the strategic complexity is said to be much higher than that of chess and also you need to use much more intuition, while less analysis than in chess. I mean I'm an amateur and also getting older - I lately end up playing my chess games in an intuitive way! 2 things I particularly liked: a) The board is immense hence pattern recognition is more important than brute calculation - that rules computers out for the moment. b) GO is like a war campaign with lots of little battles (while chess seems like a single battle with one opening, 1 middlegame and 1 endgame), i.e. in GO you can stop at a corner of the board and play an endgame, then continue with the rest of your campaign, etc. tbh if I had 2 lifes to leave I would have learnt both chess & GO I would really like to hear about any of you actually tried some of these alternatives to chess (e.g. Bibs - I think you reside in Japan at the moment?). Cheers
	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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