Dominant Chord With #9 And B13 In Parentheses
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- Thread starter Thread starter BrianJoeSandy
- Start date Start date Feb 23, 2018
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BrianJoeSandy
Member
Messages 262 Location Daventry near enough What am I supposed to do over such a chord? Do I use a mixolodian scale with third and 6th flattened or am I supposed to use a #9 and b13 in an upper octave above the normal scale.
jbtsax
R.I.P. in memoriam 1947 - 2023
Messages 9,041 Location Beautiful Springville, Utah USA The diminished whole tone or "altered" scale would work. HWHWWWW A diminished whole tone scale that goes with G #9b13 would read G-Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb-F-G where you have the Root-b9-#9-3rd-#11-b13-7th-root Note that this is also the Ab melodic minor scale starting on the 7th Thanks to Jez Watson for a correction Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
Jez Watson
Member
Messages 367 Location UK if it was a C7 chord a basic arpeggio for that voicing would be C, E, Ab, Bb, Eb
Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada Think of it in context with the surrounding harmony Like Pete, I am not an advocate of chord/scale thinking. There is a raised 9th and a raised 5th as well as a regular 5th. So you have two more chord tones to play with. The extended arpeggio for that chord in C would be C E G Bb D# (Eb) Ab One could create confusion with the Eb name as E is the note name for the third and D is the note name for the 9th Jez Watson
Member
Messages 367 Location UKJazzaferri said: There is a raised 9th and a raised 5th as well as a regular 5th Read more…you cant have both 5ths, the only scale im aware of that incorporates the flat13 and sharp9 with the major3rd and flat7th of a dominant chord is the diminishedwholetone scale
jbtsax
R.I.P. in memoriam 1947 - 2023
Messages 9,041 Location Beautiful Springville, Utah USA I would tend to agree. Theoretically you could have the natural 5th along with the flatted 6th (sharp 5th), but I suspect most keyboard players would voice the chord without the natural 5th since it is the least important chord tone harmonically. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this point. Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada I was trying to keep it simple. Silly me. #5=b6 but The first note a guitar or piano player will drop is the root, after that the fifth if comping with a bass as those notes really belong to him. If not then the voicing would depend on the adjacent harmony and the melodic statement whether you drop the root or the 5. Or play the extensions with the root first and then maybe the 5 or 7 if it goes on for a bit. Oh and the 5 and b13(6) together make for the crunchiest interval in western harmony but move the b13 up and octave and you have a flat 9 (minor 9)interval,........the very essence of cool. If the intention is to hold the chord and play the scale well, go for it. Modal with sharp 9 and flat thirteen.......different. If the intention is to play music, then one has to look at the chord in the overall context of the harmony. Play the C7 on piano in the octave above middle C and then play the D# and Ab in the next octave. Voila, one has the complete chord. Not very often would one ever voice it that way if comping but never say never. Sounds pretty cool though the b13 at the top certainly want to come down. Play just the 7th and the two colour notes in the same octave and it sounds more like Ab9 A very useful exercise will be to sit at the piano or organ and see how the significant number of different voicings of those 6 notes contained within the full extended chord and realize that you have half of the chromatic scale at your fingertips. To fully explore will take you quite a while and through a number of different tonalities Last edited: Feb 24, 2018 Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada Incidentally my fave voicing of that chord is 3 and b7 in one octave with the #9 and b13 in the next. Lots of room for a soloist to play around and through and a bit nebulous as to tonality but not completely out there. Room for bass to have fun too. Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada @BrianJoeSandy What is the harmonic context? Jez Watson
Member
Messages 367 Location UKjbtsax said: I would tend to agree. Theoretically you could have the natural 5th along with the flatted 6th (sharp 5th), but I suspect most keyboard players would voice the chord without the natural 5th since it is the least important chord tone harmonically. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this point. Read more…The flat13 is an extension of the basic arpeggio, it’s not a flat 6th. As I have already stated the accepted chord mode for this type of chord is the Diminished whole tone scale as it fulfills all the requirements of the chord description as jbtsax has said also.
jbtsax
R.I.P. in memoriam 1947 - 2023
Messages 9,041 Location Beautiful Springville, Utah USAJazzaferri said: @BrianJoeSandy What is the harmonic context? Read more…I would imagine it is a dominant 7 resolving to a I. You know "tension and release".
Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada likely but is it to a minor 1 or a major 1 and what is going on before 2m?? 3m?? I like this chord going to minor1 and have to be in a weird mood to use it going to a major tonality 1 Ads are not displayed to logged in members. Yay! DDibbs
Member
Messages 806Jazzaferri said: Play just the 7th and the two colour notes in the same octave and it sounds more like Ab9 Read more…Sounds more like Ebsus4 to me. You'd need a Gb in there to imply Ab9.
Jazzaferri
Well-Known Member
Messages 2,644 Location Victoria BC Canada Voiced naturally, Bb Eb (actually D#) Ab which for Ab9 would be 9 5 1 for Eb sus4 would be 5 1 4 IMO both are valid interpretations. certainly there would be no ambiguity if one had the Gb in there as well but then we'd almost be at C alt. DDibbs
Member
Messages 806 You could also use the harmonic major a major 3rd below the root? i.e. for C7#9b13 use Ab harmonic major. Arguably, it fits the chord better than the altered scale (which is implying a #11) but it's a bit foreign to many ears. Chord is C, E, G, Bb, D#(Eb), Ab. Ab harmonic major is Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, Fb(E) G. Altered scale is C, Db, Eb(D#), Fb(E), Gb, Ab, Bb.
gladsaxisme
Try Hard Die Hard
Messages 3,163 Location manchester I just wish I could understand all this
nigeld
Too many mouthpieces
Café Supporter Messages 8,045 Location Bristol, UKgladsaxisme said: I just wish I could understand all thisI have no desire at all to understand all this.
BrianJoeSandy
Member
Messages 262 Location Daventry near enough Harmonic context Dm B7 E7 A7 Dm where B E and A all have #9, B has #11 and E and A have b13 Tune is Since you asked John Scofield
Pete Thomas
Administrator
Cafe Moderator Messages 18,804 Location London Although I do appreciate and understand the technicalities involved and the theory behind advising that the scale which fits this chord is in the first instance an altered scale (something I myself often advise in this case) it isn't usually the way I approach improvising in real life.. I think there is often too much emphasis on playing the right notes, or the notes that fit the chord and whether, in the grand scheme of things, it actually matters. It matters if you are taking an exam in inplaying the right notes over the chord. But let's be practical for a minute. Very often those chords flash by like telegraph poles outside a train window. If I see (for instance ) a C7 b9 b13 then I may well think "ooh, I know what to do - an altered scale will fit this." (Note that I said "see the chord symbol, not "hear" it) "Seeing" a chord is often going to happen when reading a chart on a gig, or playing along in your house with a backing track when you have the sheet music - but in other situations, like on a jam session when people are just jamming, it's down to not seeing the chord but hearing it. And in that case all I'm thinking is "this is a dominant chord resolving to a tonic (or not). I don't usually have time or the aural abilities to recognise that the pianist is actually playing those altered extensions, and even if I did, would I have time to react in my impro? Probably not. So I just play what I think is a good melodic solo over a V7 chord. If I happen to play a 5th and the pianist is voicing a #5th, then the sky doesn't actually fall. And more often than not I think it's better, because I played a solo that I felt was going somewhere melodically instead of slavishly following the exact changes with the right scale. And also, in that split second that I played a 5th whie the pianist was voicing a #5th or b5th, then nobody actually noticed anyway. jbtsax
R.I.P. in memoriam 1947 - 2023
Messages 9,041 Location Beautiful Springville, Utah USA @Pete Thomas Your point is well taken. There is another aspect that my jazz teacher (tutor) has tried to instill in me that I feel needs to be said. That is to practice and memorize the "jazz scales" in different keys to get the sound of those scales in your ear. That way when improvising if "your ear" (not your intellect) takes you to that sound, you have that combination of notes under your fingers. I hear parts of diminished scales occasionally when listening to recordings of great players. I don't think Dexter Gordon is thinking I hear a V7 chord so I think I'll play part of a diminished/altered scale. I think his ear takes him to that "color" or tension as part of the melodic line he is creating. Also when you work with the same keyboard player or guitarist a lot I think you get a feel for what they like to do on dominant 7 chords in certain contexts and styles so you kind of know kind of what to expect when you are improvising.- 1
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