G42-G43 On Lathes...Why? - CNC Zone
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- 07-11-2007, 10:15 PM #1 g-codeguy
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Member 
Join Date May 2007 Location USA Posts 1003 Downloads0 Uploads0 
G42-G43 on lathes...Why? I can see why one would use tool radius compensation on mills, but what circumstances would require it on a lathe? I tried it on .007R seats when I first started programming, but it didn't work for me. Probably because I didn't have a long enough move when I called up the G42 code. Anyhoo...since then I haven't felt a need to use these codes in over 22 years of programming lathes. Is it because most of my parts are relatively simple? Love to hear from some of the experts on here.Similar Threads:
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Reply with Quote - 07-11-2007, 10:38 PM #2 Geof
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Member Join Date Jul 2005 Location Canada Posts 12177 Downloads0 Uploads0 I don't claim to be expert in Tool Compensation on lathes but I have found when turning spheres it is much easier to control size with compensation active. EDIT Here is some discussion of Tool Comp on lathes including some links that give an explanation of its value. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40256
An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.
Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 10:13 AM #3 Jorge-D-Fuentes
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Member Join Date Mar 2006 Location USA Posts 81 Downloads0 Uploads0 I'm FAR from an expert, but... I've opted not to use the TNC codes in my programs for two reasons: 1. we always seem to use the same tool nose radius (we don't switch inserts) so I just program my toolpaths so that they're offset from the surface of the part by the amount of the nose. As such, we get the accuracy we need (although we're not making precision parts). 2. I don't quite grasp how to adjust the TNC as one makes the other side of a Radius. I can see how to use it if all the parts were tapering upwards of if I were making rectangular profiles... but I make Ring-like pieces with a radius on top... so I can TNC as I make half of the radius, but don't quite get what to do as I come back around, since what it's doing is offsetting the tool 'left' or 'right' (for profiling I guess it's moving it up by the value of the Radius in the offsets, as well as to the right when doing OD turning with the chuck on the left and the tools on the right). The drawbacks of (not using) TNC is that you need to calculate your offset toollpaths yourself if you want accuracy, and heavens forbid your company decides to change Inserts and you need precision, since you'd have to rewrite all your programs to match that new insert nose radius otherwise your parts will have little imperfections in the parts that are rounded. I'd love to use TNC, just in case my company decides to do that. My three current tools are tip 3, 2, 3 (OD Turning, ID Turning, Part-Off (though that last one shouldn't really use a 'tip' really), gang table on the right, chuck on left), which tells the the control how they're oriented so that it can offset them for you. Using TNC simplifies the profiling process, since you're drawing the surface of the profile, not drawing the intended toolpath, and depending on what your offset parameters are for the Radius, the control would calculate your toolpath for you, and if you change inserts for a tool, it'll adjust your program to match after you input the new Radius into the Offsets.
Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 10:33 AM #4 M-man
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Registered Join Date May 2006 Location Sweden Posts 265 Downloads0 Uploads0 You need radiuscomp on lathe to easy produce correct profiles when cutting arcs, tapers, chamfers etc. Otherwise you must adjust the toolpath for to achive the correct toolpath.
Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 11:32 AM #5 Andre' B
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Registered Join Date May 2007 Location US Posts 781 Downloads0 Uploads0 So the guy on the floor can switch to a 0.015 rad insert when he runs out of the 0.030 rad inserts without having to edit all the chamfers and radius cuts in the program. If all you are doing is straight turning and facing cuts, with no corner radius or angled cuts it does not matter. But if you program for an 0.030 external corner radius on your part without comp. using a 0.030 radius tool and just switch to a 0.015 radius tool you will get a 0.045 radius on your part. Any cuts that are not parallel to the X or Z axes will also be wrong by an amount depending on the angle 45's will be off the most. Been a long time since I did much programming for lathes, I do mostly mills. So when I did program for a lathe I used tool tip type 0, center of the radius because the resulting G code makes sense
(most like a mill). Setup guys don't like it because they have to remember to add the tip rad when they touch off a tool. Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 12:00 PM #6 adamant
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Registered Join Date Nov 2004 Location USA Posts 110 Downloads0 Uploads0 It takes some getting use to but it is worth it. I started on second shift and ran the programs that another fellow wrote, so I had to fix all the comp errors. TRC is all about precision. If it does not have to be a precise radius that you want to hit the first time, first part, then it is not needed.
Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 10:44 PM #7 g-codeguy
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Member Join Date May 2007 Location USA Posts 1003 Downloads0 Uploads0 Adamant: I do not understand your statement, "If it does not have to be a precise radius that you want to hit the first time, first part, then it is not needed." How can you check a radius on the machine? We have to take the part to QC to do it. Forget the fact that most of our machines are barfeed. Trying to put a part back in the chuck could be a PITA depending on whether is is a sawed slug or not, 1st or 2nd end. Even a casting requires indicating back in. Sorry you had to work with a careless (or unknowing) programmer. I have to agree that machining a sphere could benefit from tool nose radius comp. We have a couple jobs that have a sphere, and I will try it next time we run one of them. Andre' B: Never heard of running out of .031R inserts. Might run out of the grade being used, but change grade and modify SFM if necessary. If I can't trust the guy on the floor to use the correct radius insert, how can I trust him to change the R-value? M-man: Yes, I have had to fudge a program to get the taper I wanted, or even to make a straight cut. Usually it is caused by tool pressure. (We run a lot of small parts.) Don't see how tool comp would help. Jorge: We have parts with .007R or .008R seats. We use a special seating tool that cuts on both sides of the tool. This is the part I tried MANY years ago to run with TNRC. I could try it again and get back to you with my findings. Goef: Thanks for the link, and the links within that link!
I know how to figure tool nose compensation. I did manual programming for several years. I think you are correct that sphere size could be held better with TRC. I was interested in what kind of parts would benefit from tool nose radius compensation. So far spheres, and a close tolerance angle are about the only reasons I see for using it. Reply with Quote - 07-12-2007, 11:46 PM #8 Geof
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Originally Posted by g-codeguy 
.....I was interested in what kind of parts would benefit from tool nose radius compensation. So far spheres, and a close tolerance angle are about the only reasons I see for using it. In my experience this sums it up quite well. An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.
Reply with Quote - 07-13-2007, 04:52 AM #9 M-man
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Registered Join Date May 2006 Location Sweden Posts 265 Downloads0 Uploads0 To get the position of a taper right it is a must to use comp, or to adjust toolpath, meaning that the values of your nc prg is nothing like them on the drawing if you dont uses comp... Look at pic to se what direct drawing dimensions does without comp...
Attached Thumbnails Reply with Quote - 07-19-2007, 08:13 PM #10 PatM
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Registered Join Date Apr 2004 Location canada Posts 12 Downloads0 Uploads0 with a good cam post it's not. It is pertty much a left over from the old day's, back when I started there were no computers the way most think NC ran on tape PAPER tape OMG I'm that old? Well I could give you the whole lesson on cutter comp but why?
Reply with Quote - 07-22-2007, 12:33 PM #11 tobyaxis
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Join Date Jan 2006 Location USA Posts 4396 Downloads0 Uploads0 Originally Posted by g-codeguy I can see why one would use tool radius compensation on mills, but what circumstances would require it on a lathe? I tried it on .007R seats when I first started programming, but it didn't work for me. Probably because I didn't have a long enough move when I called up the G42 code. Anyhoo...since then I haven't felt a need to use these codes in over 22 years of programming lathes. Is it because most of my parts are relatively simple? Love to hear from some of the experts on here. TNR comes in handy for parts like these. Because of the angles and radii it makes it easier to program to the print rather than extra trig. I always use G41/G42 to avoid miscalculating geometry. Why do extra work when you don't have too?? Use the functions of the machine and above all make things simple. I was always told to work smarter, not harder. Cheers!!!! Attached Thumbnails Toby D. "Imagination and Memory are but one thing, but for divers considerations have divers names" Schwarzwald (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management) www.refractotech.com
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 01:23 PM #12 Jorge-D-Fuentes
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Member Join Date Mar 2006 Location USA Posts 81 Downloads0 Uploads0 Thanks for the pictures there, awesomeness. I developed an offsetting parametric draft/model using a combination of Excel and SolidEdge in order to calculate my geometry for me. What it does is basically offset my model's radii and draft contrours/lines by the nose radius, essentially calculating my toolpath for me. It works... but I fear the day when my company decides to use another tool for OD Turning, for it would render all those 10,000 or so programs useless. It's a standard tool, so I don't see it being discontinued any time soon (it's a 35 degree diamond-shaped insert with what I believe to be a 0.017-0.020" tool nose radius... or so I was told. Hah hah! I could be making the parts wrong all along if misinformed... but no one has complained yet; in fact, they're rather pleased with the results!). Then again, their margin of error seems to be pretty high, as the pieces I make get treated to a number of steps before they ever make it to the general public. But yes, working smarter, not harder, is good, heh. If I used TNC in my programs instead, then I could just go to the Offsets page and enter the new tool's Nose Radius, as well as specify its orientation, and the control would calculate the toolpaths for me... ...but I didn't know that when I started, and I was given the 'promise' of a Cad/Cam package, that only arrived three months ago, when I was already nearly done with the whole thing. I've been in this project for over a year now. Talk about late, heh. Now I've to learn Mastercam for "Future purposes", although we basically are machining little doughnuts and washers... seems like Overkill to me. Oh well, it's always good to learn something new. I make similar things to the ones in the picture, only imagine them being only a few millimeters in width, rather than large objects... so our tooling is for small parts.
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 01:59 PM #13 Geof
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Member Join Date Jul 2005 Location Canada Posts 12177 Downloads0 Uploads0 Originally Posted by Jorge-D-Fuentes .....Now I've to learn Mastercam for "Future purposes", although we basically are machining little doughnuts and washers... seems like Overkill to me. Oh well, it's always good to learn something new.... Once upon a time I looked at Mastercam and I have read posts and threads with questions about Mastercam. I am not convinced that your: "Oh well, it's always good to learn something new" is entirely applicable to Mastercam . An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 04:25 PM #14 Jorge-D-Fuentes
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Wow, that bad, eh? Either that, or that was an insult towards me. :P I don't think Mastercam LATHE is worth an investment. Perhaps for MILL, but for something that you can most likely profile in the control display, it seems like using a cannon to kill a fly. However, that is a discussion most likely for the Mastercam subforum, rather than here. :P :P :P
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 04:51 PM #15 Geof
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Member Join Date Jul 2005 Location Canada Posts 12177 Downloads0 Uploads0 The flying killing cannon comment is about correct. Why break your head learning how to kill flies.
An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 07:34 PM #16 tobyaxis
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Registered Join Date Jan 2006 Location USA Posts 4396 Downloads0 Uploads0 Originally Posted by Jorge-D-Fuentes Wow, that bad, eh? Either that, or that was an insult towards me. :P I don't think Mastercam LATHE is worth an investment. Perhaps for MILL, but for something that you can most likely profile in the control display, it seems like using a cannon to kill a fly. However, that is a discussion most likely for the Mastercam subforum, rather than here. :P :P :P Any CAD/CAM for Lathes is OverKill unless your Turning complex Shapes. Always use TNR because of the simple fact that the Tool Geometry can be changed at any time to a different tools Nose Radius. What are the ANSI and ISO Designations on the box of inserts. (80 degree) CNMG430 CNMG431 CNMG432 (55 degree) DNMG430 DNMG431 DNMG432 (35 degree) VNMG430 VNMG431 VNMG432 All of these mean something. example CNMG431 ANSI C=the shape N=the clearances M=tolerance class G=type 4=the inscribed circle or IC in 1/8 increments 3=the thickness in 1/16th increments 1=the cutting point configuration or nose radius This insert would be as follows: C= diamond 80 degree / Rhombic N= 0 degrees M=.002-.01 roll dimension/.002-.004 IC/.005 thickness G=with hole and chip grooves on two rake faces 4= a 3/8 IC 3= a 3/16 thickness 1= .015625 or .0156 Nose Radius. Hope this helps you out. You can find the ANSI and ISO Insert Identifications in the MSC catalog or in the Machinery's Hand Book 26th Edition Cheers!!!!! Last edited by tobyaxis; 07-24-2007 at 08:23 PM.
Toby D. "Imagination and Memory are but one thing, but for divers considerations have divers names" Schwarzwald (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management) www.refractotech.com
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 09:17 PM #17 Geof
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Member Join Date Jul 2005 Location Canada Posts 12177 Downloads0 Uploads0 Originally Posted by tobyaxis Any CAD/CAM for Lathes is OverKill unless your Turning complex Shapes. Always us TNR because of the simple fact that the Tool Geometry can be changed at any time to a different tools Nose Radius. ........ Complex (looking) shapes without CAD/CAM are possible and using TNR makes them much easier. Attached Thumbnails An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.
Reply with Quote - 07-23-2007, 10:03 PM #18 g-codeguy
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Member Join Date May 2007 Location USA Posts 1003 Downloads0 Uploads0 Jorge, don't know about Europe, but over here insert radii can come in .004R .008R, 1/64R (I use .016), 1/32R (I use .031), and on up. Never use bigger than 1/32R except for some roughing applications. We will all be in deep doo-doo if they ever stop making 1/64R 35 Deg. profiling inserts. We make end washers in various sizes for one of our sister companies. One has a .183/.185 bore, and we reach through with a solid carbide threading bar to back chamfer the I.D. so the part is burr free when cut-off. This one in 420 SS. tobyaxis: "I always use G41/G42 to avoid miscalculating geometry. Why do extra work when you don't have too?? Use the functions of the machine and above all make things simple. I was always told to work smarter, not harder." Bummer. No one ever told me that!
Haha. I made myself a little chart for 45 Deg. chamfers with various size radii on the corners. Didn't take long to memorize the 7 different combinations that I use the most. Been using a CAD program for years so that I don't have to figure trig. Got lazy. Was nice of you to give Jorge that list of insert examples. PatM: We have been using MasterCam for years. I guess that is another reason I never learned to use G42-G43 codes. However I think I will give it a shot on a couple programs just to prove to myself that I can do it correctly. 
Geof: MasterCam v9 is easy. Haven't gotten use to MCX yet as we just got the posts updated, and most still need some work done on them. V9 posts weren't set up for C-axis programming, of for subspindle work. However, like you I prefer manual programming for the most part. Getting a program posted in MC isn't hard, but getting it to be nearly as clean as a manual program takes a lot more effort (and time) on my part. Reply with Quote - 07-24-2007, 01:13 PM #19 Jorge-D-Fuentes
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I don't think the problem is that it isn't easy. The thing is, as easy as it may be, it's kinda pointless when you can just go over to the control and turn what you want how you want. It just takes a little knowhow in G-Code. I don't even use Any CAM software (even though Mastercam was purchased recently), since I use MsExcel for my calculations, SolidEdge for my model (and that's mostly for calculating offset toolpaths since I was told not to use TNC and didn't know how to use it at the time) and Notepad++ for the post. I use a LAN connection to send the files to the Lathe's hard-drive, and over there the operator can easily load 'em and cut. If you have those, you don't need a $3000 program, especially for Lathework. Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Here's a scan of my OD Profiling insert. It uses ISO:
Last edited by Jorge-D-Fuentes; 07-24-2007 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Tool Specs
Reply with Quote - 07-25-2007, 02:03 PM #20 M-man
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Registered Join Date May 2006 Location Sweden Posts 265 Downloads0 Uploads0 Originally Posted by Jorge-D-Fuentes I don't think the problem is that it isn't easy. The thing is, as easy as it may be, it's kinda pointless when you can just go over to the control and turn what you want how you want. It just takes a little knowhow in G-Code. I don't even use Any CAM software (even though Mastercam was purchased recently), since I use MsExcel for my calculations, SolidEdge for my model (and that's mostly for calculating offset toolpaths since I was told not to use TNC and didn't know how to use it at the time) and Notepad++ for the post. I use a LAN connection to send the files to the Lathe's hard-drive, and over there the operator can easily load 'em and cut. If you have those, you don't need a $3000 program, especially for Lathework. Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Here's a scan of my OD Profiling insert. It uses ISO: Just woundering how you would do if you had to turn a "TRUE" eliptical shape without cad/cam... Its sad you dont uses cam when you have the chance too, you could never achive the same toolpaths for C-axis just using your head and control.. Reply with Quote
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