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- Hi Vi B3S and.... budget bass?
- Thread starter Thread starter edjosh23
- Start date Start date 2005-01-06 4:55 am
edjosh23
Member
Joined 2004 cardomain.com/ride/621686/1 After reading John's great comparison ( here ) I wanted to make a nice BUDGET 2way. I have also convinced a friend to get into home audio (he's not a diyer) and he might be interested in a pair of these speakers as is another friend of mine. I wanted the use the Hi Vi B3S and like an 8" woofer to get some REAL bass. The woofer can be almost any size, don't really care but I would like for it to be under $30 per driver. I want a woofer to get real bass entension and get those low notes, maybe even use these speakers in a home theater, maybe sell some to a few of my brother's friends or frat boys. I kind of like the idea of not having a XO on the B3S since I'm afraid I might loose imaging (and I'm afraid of crossovers and that my soundstage might be very small) The woofer on the other hand I would like to just use 300hz and below. The woofer I'm not as worried about with imaging, especially if they will be used in home theater the woofers are needed, but I'm not to sure if a wide sound stage is necessary for the woofers. *shielding would be nice also* this Dayton is shielded and looks promising, as does the 8" Very open to suggestions and I think this could be a great beginner project, as I'm somewhat of a noob to building speakers and haven't built a final cabinet for my first pair. I'm not going to start this project immediately, (have to wait a week or so, building a sub box for someone to get the $ for this project 😀 ) Thanks, Josh
Zaph
Member
Joined 2003 zaphaudio.com That dayton would work great, but you'd need it to be a satellite-sub system rather than a passive 2-way. In other words, it needs it's own amp with level control. It's too efficient to be paired with the B3S. Most drivers will. If you want to pair a woofer with this, it would need to be no more than about 83 db 1w/1m efficient, and that's including the use of full baffle step compensation. The B3S does need a filter. I'm probably going to do one for it though, and the Aura NS3-193 too.
Jim85IROC
Member
Joined 2003 iroc.fbody.com I built a powered sub using the shielded Dayton 8", and I'm exceptionally pleased with it. I originally built it to compliment my Tangband W3-871 full range speakers, but the enclosure for the Dayton 8" wound up being so big, that it became completely impractical to use at my computer desk with the Tangbands, and wound up becoming part of my main system. I'm now building a new sub with the 7" aluminum dayton driver. You may want to consider it also. It'll use less than half the space of the 8", and still go pretty deep. I'm stuffing it into an undersized enclosure (.5 cubic feet) because I want a very compact sub, but even in that enclosure, it's f3 is below 50hz. This enclosure will actually be compact enough for me to use at my computer desk to compliment my tangbands. edjosh23
Member
Joined 2004 cardomain.com/ride/621686/1 The aluminium cone Dayton looks great, inexpensive, low fs compared to most 7" and pretty good responce, but it isn't shielded. I'ts efficiency is 85db 1w1m which could be a good pair with B3S. Being a noob, I'm lost when you say build a filter. What would a filter consist of? and is it almost fool proof? 😀 Also this vifa looks pretty good too. Its got a low fs 37hz, but the responce says 40hz and up. and is $24 at madisound The Hi Vi M8N would be perfect but not willing to pay that much $ Also the Peerless 830411 looks pretty good. I like a lot of bass, so I think a little high efficiency would be good for the woofer, but I didn't really think about sensitivity when i was looking at those shielded daytons. so how is this selection? Thanks, Josh Mmorbo
Member
Joined 2004 I am doing something similar with the TB 871 WR driver and the Dayton RS 8" woofer. I am most likely crossing over 2nd order @ ~ 500hz. The idea is for a budget fullrange HT speaker that will not require a sub at reasonable listening levels (they are for townhouse dwellers). As of now I have started the boxes and cut the driver holes. If you want I would be happy to share specifics as I go along. Another approach would be to make a pair of small sealed satellites with a B3s in each, then use an HT reciever's bass management to send everything below say, 150hz or so to one or two subs using the drivers you mention. The benefit of this is no passive crossover to design, the drawback is that you will need another amp to driver the woofer section. In a way that is another benefit as well, biamping the system will probably give much better dynamics, since most HT recievers are pretty weak in the power department. BTW, if you are looking to spend around $30 per driver, you can use the Dayton RS225 that I am using: I am doing something similar with the TB 871 WR driver and the Dayton RS 8" woofer. I am most likely crossing over 2nd order @ ~ 500hz. The idea is for a budget fullrange HT speaker that will not require a sub at reasonable listening levels (they are for townhouse dwellers). As of now I have started the boxes and cut the driver holes. If you want I would be happy to share specifics as I go along. Another approach would be to make a pair of small sealed satellites with a B3s in each, then use an HT reciever's bass management to send everything below say, 150hz or so to one or two subs using the drivers you mention. The benefit of this is no passive crossover to design, the drawback is that you will need another amp to driver the woofer section. In a way that is another benefit as well, biamping the system will probably give much better dynamics, since most HT recievers are pretty weak in the power department. edjosh23
Member
Joined 2004 cardomain.com/ride/621686/1 My amp is a Denon 1804 and actually puts out too much power for many speakers including the WR125s. I could definately use the B3S for satelites, usinig 2 would be better to manage the power, and I can use my Denon to crossover high like 150. But I'd really like to make a 2 way with the B3S for the "common folk" with no preamp, no biamping, just a "reciever". The Dayton looks great and has a low Fs, but its a little too much $. One of my friends is starting to get into phono and I'm helping him get a $200 amp, a $100 record player, and I'm going to build him some speakers with great extension and good imaging. I'm still in high school so many of my friends don't know a whole lot about audio and I'm trying to help them. I think that the B3S would be a great inexpensive speaker, and paired with a good woofer (for little $) then I would have an inexpensive great speaker for my friend, who should be able to use the speakers for many years. To Zaph, a little OT but do you think the wr125 needs a filter? Thanks, Josh edjosh23
Member
Joined 2004 cardomain.com/ride/621686/1 Marbo, are you going to have the TB and the Dayton as a 2 way? I would also like a little more info about the project if possible.Am I looking for 8" speakers to go too low? Is 30hz low enough? I think I like the Aluminium cone 7" now. Does the TB need a filter? Is the TB easier to work with? On CSS does the TB come in pairs or 1? Thanks, Josh Mmorbo
Member
Joined 2004 edjosh - yes it is a 2 way. The TB 871 is in its own ~5l sealed & heavily stuffed subenclosure, the RS225 uses the rest of the box volume, which works out to ~ 67l. The RS225 is vented using a 3" diameter flared port, 11" long, theoretical tuning to ~ 25hz. The external cabinet dimensions are 38" tall by 10" wide by 16" deep. This is a big speaker! The TB 871 does not *need* a filter in a 2 way design, but if you want decent volume out of it, I would use one. You could run the TB fullrange in a sealed box, which should give a 2nd order rolloff starting around 140hz. Then you could bring a woofer in at the same frequency. I considered this approach, but felt that the 871s low excursion would hold back the potential of the design. I want the best dynamics and midrange clarity the 871 can produce, and having used them in my HT for some time now, I know that even using the recievers 100hz crossover, they have trouble reaching HT volume levels without sounding very compressed. Also, when using a passive crossover that low, it seems the crossover components get very expensive very fast. Is the TB easier to work with? I assume you are thinking compared to the Hivi B3S? I've never used the B3S so I can't say for sure. But it seems to me that with the greater Xmax of the B3S, you have a bit more 'breathing room' in terms of the crossover. If I was doing this again, and wanted to crossover lower or shallower for whatever reason, I would use the B3s or maybe even the little Aura 3" driver. Is 30hz too low for an 8" driver? Depends on the application and expectations, and of course on the driver. Because my speaker is designed for near-wall placement (provides some boundary gain), and very high output is not required, (again, owners are townhouse dwellers), I feel comfortable tuning very low to get a nice shallow rolloff in the lowest frequencies. It also helps that the RS225 has a high xmax and low fs for an 8" driver. I think it really depends on the output you expect. Now a question or two for you.. is the 1804 the amp you intend to use in your friends vinyl setup? I assume it has a phono input? I don't know much about vinyl, but IIRC there is lots of non-music output from a turntable in the 20hz and under range unless you use a rumble filter? This may be problematic if you tune really low like I did. You might consider a sealed design in that case, as ported designs don't handle material below the tuning frequency very well. If you want to keep this simple, and I suggest that you do since you want to keep costs down and its an early project for you, you could go one of 2 ways: 1. the sub/sat approach I mentioned earlier 2. Use the B3S and a woofer with a nice smooth upper rolloff (ie probably not metal cone) , and do a 1st order crossover somewhere somewhere in the 300-700hz range. If it was me I would go for #1 if possible, I don't like passive XOs or designing them, and I prefer to use a separate amp since HT recievers almost always have weak amp sections IMO. I'm sure there are other options much better advice to be had from others though, I'm just a beginner as well and the speaker I described above is my first true 'diy' speaker (in that I am designing the enclosures and XO myself), I've only done kits in the past. edjosh23
Member
Joined 2004 cardomain.com/ride/621686/1 Thats a big speaker.
I really don't know anything about filters, as to what they are or how to make them, is there good website to read or a definition that someone can give me? The 1804 is my personal amplifier. The friend who is getting into vinyl will have a different amp, yes I'm looking for an amp with a phono filter. He is far from an audiophile, but loves good music and to hear it as pure as possible. While on the other hand, the other friend that would like to buy a pair likes loud music, preferably with bass (he likes rap) and would use a shelf system amp (has a subsonic filter), but I'm trying to convince him to buy a real amp. I'd like to design something for the two of them. The woofer can have an L-pad so that if sensitivity is too high, they can tone it down a little bit to their preference. About the "rumble filter" we are looking at a HK and I'm guessing the phone filter on that has some sort of subsonic filter, but he is also going to be listening to a lot of cds. the sub/sat idea is nice Both friends are probably going to be turning up the volume higher than normal listening levels. On John/ Zaph has made a filter, would that be acceptible for the TB 871 in my use? I'd kinda prefer to try out the Hivi over the TB. Before I really started building any speakers, I went on madisound and looked at all the companies and I knoticed HiVi speakers and searched on here and found very little info, because not many people seem to use them. Their responce charts look realy good and I'd like to try out using the B3S, but I don't want to be completely lost and have noone to help me. I think if I could get a little more info I could design a filter for the B3S and it might actually work. I asked the phone friend about the sat/sub idea and he said he would rather have speakers than can go down to about 50hz (he doesn't know frequencies but I played a few tracks for him with the wr125s and he said he wanted to go down low, about as low at those speakers.) Do you think the Aura would be easier to work with than the B3S? Are you using an active or passive? Thanks, Josh C chubby chaser
Member
Joined 2007 I'm giving the Dayton SD270-88 10" Shielded DVC Subwoofer a chance with Zaph's b3s project. I havent gotten off the ground yet i just built one test box and one crossover with the 4 ohm resistor. It sounds clear. Unfortunatley my parts came in before the two front doors Im refinishing are finished. Man I hate varnishing doors!!! Ddawg1161
Member
Joined 2006 Jim85iroc : Could you please describe your 8" sub ? amp? box deminsions? sealed or ported? I have one just lying around and would like to build something for the son and his playstation. Thank You Ssreten
R.I.P.
Joined 2003edjosh23 said: .... I wanted to make a nice BUDGET 2way .... Josh Click to expand...Hi, Well assuming a viciously low sensitivity 3" full range + 8" bass is the way to do it is wrong ...... generally speaking a budget speaker with great bass is an oxymoron as great bass is expensive, and the point of a good budget speaker is the overall quality, midrange especially. On a budget requiring bass the floorstanding BAMTM is hard to beat : http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html I'd go the 28Hz tuning option. This has a decent combination of good bass extension, reasonable sensitivity, good loudness capability and dispersion characteristics. Sensitivity is around 8dB higher than a fully EQ'd B3S based speaker. In real terms the difference between a 10W and 90W amplifier, i.e the B3S based speaker would turn a 90W amplifier into 10W. 🙂/sreten. P.S. you cannot put an L-pad on woofers without turning the bass to mush. Status Not open for further replies. Share: Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn Reddit Pinterest Tumblr WhatsApp Email Link
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