 27th October 2020, 23:50 | #1 |
RedRyan  Second gear | Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: USA Posts: 143 | |
| RedRyan Second gear Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: USA Posts: 143 | Hp to whp conversion conversation When people talk about factory specs on cars they always use Hp (not whp), however here when we talk about modding we always use whp and for good reason; it's the number that matters. Now I already know the factory number for both is about 171hp and 141 whp, but I don't know how that relationship changes as you tune the who up to higher numbers. In the ranges of 250-350whp how many normal (brake) hp is the engine making. Is the relationship simply subtractive? So like always a -30hp when converting. Or is it a linear relationship? So when you have double the power it is double the subtraction. I kinda just want to know these numbers to tell people how much power it has if they don't understand much about cars. __________________ 2006 True Red with factory hardtop. Ohlins coilovers 7/4k, Progress swaybars, A splendid stubby antenna. |
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| 28th October 2020, 00:11 | #2 |
| Beatthathorse. Third gear | Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Benton harbor mishigan Posts: 414 | |
| Beatthathorse. Third gear Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Benton harbor mishigan Posts: 414 | It’s a percentage that changes based on drivetrain configuration. A 250whp Miata would have around 300-325 at the crank. |
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| 28th October 2020, 01:11 | #3 |
| JonK67 Fifth gear | Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Smyrna, TN Posts: 3,275 | |
| JonK67 Fifth gear Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Smyrna, TN Posts: 3,275 | You lose about 15% to drivetrain load so a 167hp MT NC Miata is ~143 whp. AT is 158hp - 134whp. I have the Dynotronics FMT Mk1 turbo just installed and dyno'd at 280 whp, that's 322 hp at the crank or BHP - brake horsepower as it's known. A 460hp 2020 Mustang GT is 416whp. __________________ '15 25AE 6MT PRHT #0975 w/Dynotronics FMT; '02 LS Brilliant Black w/FFS SC; 01 BRG SE (sold 2022); '67 Mustang Coupe 333ci. |
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| 28th October 2020, 11:15 | #4 |
| Zala Fifth gear | Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 2,462 | |
| Zala Fifth gear Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 2,462 | Quote: Originally Posted by JonK67  You lose about 15% to drivetrain load so a 167hp MT NC Miata is ~143 whp. AT is 158hp - 134whp. I have the Dynotronics FMT Mk1 turbo just installed and dyno'd at 280 whp, that's 322 hp at the crank or BHP - brake horsepower as it's known. A 460hp 2020 Mustang GT is 416whp. | Guys, just to kind of back us up a little bit... Stock cars around here are dynoing 130-135whp. Fully bolton around 150-160whp. I have feeling the 15% calculation is a bit of false hope especially as total power climbs. I usually assume about 30HP difference to account for drivetrain inefficiency. Does that 15% really scale in practical application? Genuine ask there, what's the explanation to justify a 15% factor across the board? I know Joe has an engine dyno he's setting up. It would be very interesting to see one of his higher power setups on the engine dyno, then in the car on an roller/dynapack. __________________ Rides: Mazda... '11 MX5 - 1G FMT MK2, '13 MX5 - 2.5L 1G FMT MK1.5, '13 MX5 - 2.0L 1G FMT MK1, '06 MX5 2.5L N/A, '06 Lotus Elise SC, '15 Alfa Romeo 4C |
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| 28th October 2020, 11:33 | #5 |
 | Lance Schall  Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Keep in mind that when you compare two numbers like 171hp and 141hp you are already simplifying two horsepower curves to two individual specific data points (that are near each other but not necessarily identical rpm). When somebody says the difference to 20% or whatever, keep in mind they are comparing these two points. That said, there are both linear, constant, and load dependent components in the comparison. This issue has been much discussed. Here is a thread: https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=5164 __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 13:40 | #6 |
| Twofer Third gear | Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | |
| Twofer Third gear Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | Richard Holdener has a great video showing engine vs chassis dyno results, before and after some power upgrades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2FdtRb94hw The short answer: It's a fixed number, based on the drivetrain, not a percentage of horsepower. So yes, for our cars, it's ~30 hp. If you add a turbo and keep the same flywheel, transmission, driveshaft, differential, halfshafts, and wheels, it's still ~30 hp in drivetrain losses. Now if you hook up our LF 2.0 engine to a Subaru AWD drivetrain, you'll have different drivetrain losses. __________________ 2006 NC (mostly) track car. 2.5, Esslinger S1 cams, Öhlins coils, Goodwin BF-BBK https://www.youtube.com/user/TurboHappyCar |
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| 28th October 2020, 14:35 | #7 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Twofer The short answer: It's a fixed number, based on the drivetrain, not a percentage of horsepower. | Yes and no. That is what he said, but there are some issues. Keep in mind that the LS comparison cited hp difference of 82 hp from chassis to engine dyno at a 1500 rpm spread. ie, he's looking at the curve in two places at large and arbitrary difference in rpm. Note also that he is directly addressing a DynoJet as his chassis dyno, which is OK as that is what I discuss in my linked post. Results here will vary with the equipment used. There are other chassis dynos and I would say that a hub dyno is a better choice. I directly contradict his conclusion however. Percentage or constant? The huge thing here is he is lumping things into "drivetrain loss" that are not drivetrain loss. My approach is more scientific and academic. His is more experiential and empirical. The tire friction (and slip) at the rollers, inertia of accelerating the tires and rest of the drivetrain IS significant and relatively constant. Given the mass of the tires does not change and the dyno run takes a similar amount of time each run (given the power of the engines is vaguely similar). This is a constant forcing function for his educational video. It is ONLY "drivetrain loss" in a conversational this-is-my-DynoJet kind of way. That drives his conclusion. The actual way to measure drivetrain loss is to "motor" the transmission input shaft with a measured torque/power and measure the axle output similarly. You will never find 82 hp "missing" there, just a few horsepower. Good god, 82 hp is 62 kW, the transmission would be molten slag! The conclusion is - if you use a specific DynoJet (calibration, elevation, correction) AND are considering "drivetrain loss" to include the particular differences caused by the measurement technique itself AND realize your results are confined to similar Miata drivetrains THEN you may derive and use a "constant". __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 14:49 | #8 |
| tyhackman15 Third gear | Join Date: May 2014 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 917 | |
| tyhackman15 Third gear Join Date: May 2014 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 917 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Twofer Richard Holdener has a great video showing engine vs chassis dyno results, before and after some power upgrades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2FdtRb94hw The short answer: It's a fixed number, based on the drivetrain, not a percentage of horsepower. So yes, for our cars, it's ~30 hp. If you add a turbo and keep the same flywheel, transmission, driveshaft, differential, halfshafts, and wheels, it's still ~30 hp in drivetrain losses. Now if you hook up our LF 2.0 engine to a Subaru AWD drivetrain, you'll have different drivetrain losses. | That's very incorrect. If you make 100hp at the crank and 70whp, 1000hp at the crank will not equate to 970whp. Not even close. Don't have time to watch the video, but if he's claiming that, he's clearly talking about some specific scenario, because again, your statement is false. __________________ 2006 NC, 2.5L, Cams, ITBs, LinkECU, Bilstein Coils, Wilwoods, the list goes on. |
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| 28th October 2020, 15:31 | #9 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Here's another short thread with references to SAE technical papers if a reader is really into it: https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=10552 I don't want to say the star of the youtube doesn't know what he's talking about. He seems like a thoughtful and experienced technician. It just takes a little effort on the watcher's part understand the subject and appreciate the limitations of lifting a sentence out of his presentation and assuming it is a law of nature. This is a complicated thing. One should notice that many respectable tuners don't splash a dyno chart across their website home page.... __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 17:58 | #10 |
| Twofer Third gear | Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | |
| Twofer Third gear Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | Quote: | Originally Posted by tyhackman15 That's very incorrect. If you make 100hp at the crank and 70whp, 1000hp at the crank will not equate to 970whp. Not even close. Don't have time to watch the video, but if he's claiming that, he's clearly talking about some specific scenario, because again, your statement is false. | Of course it wouldn't make 970 hp, the transmission would break way before that.  Rewatching the video, he does a poor job at explaining it, doesn't control for some variables, and (to Lance's point) looks at different RPMs. (To compare peak numbers.) The procedure was to: 1. Chassis dyno the car 2. Remove the engine 3. Dyno the engine 4. Mod the engine 5. Dyno modded engine 6. Reinstall into car 7. Dyno modded car Going through the video and eyeballing the dyno graphs, I picked 5500 rpm. Video timecode 20:03 for Chassis dyno before/after. Timecode 18:01 for engine dyno before/after.  I'm interested to hear if there are any other tests like this. The conclusion still makes sense to me. If the drivetrain is the same, why would the losses change? (I'll believe a little bit for friction.) I think other factors like intake/exhaust and engine driven accessories would be another difference between what you would see on the chassis dyno vs engine dyno. And of course, there's the differences between the dynos themselves, different manufacturers measuring torque differently. Quote: | Originally Posted by Lance Schall You will never find 82 hp "missing" there, just a few horsepower. Good god, 82 hp is 62 kW, the transmission would be molten slag! | I didn't catch it in the video, but I think the LS from the drift car was run minus accessories and exhaust, giving gross horsepower. If you're referring to the 1975 Tradesman Van, it may have had the slushiest slush box of a transmission ever.  __________________ 2006 NC (mostly) track car. 2.5, Esslinger S1 cams, Öhlins coils, Goodwin BF-BBK https://www.youtube.com/user/TurboHappyCar |
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| 28th October 2020, 18:10 | #11 |
| Kenata Third gear | Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Greenwood Lake, NY (near NJ) Posts: 387 | |
| Kenata Third gear Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Greenwood Lake, NY (near NJ) Posts: 387 | I'm a logic-based thinker (logically that means I'm always right!  ) and thinking through things, it isn't a fixed percentage nor is it a fixed amount. For example, let's go to extremes...if the engine had 1hp (which I believe would move the car), then you don't subtract 30hp...makes no sense! Neither do you just take off 15% to determine end WHP. This is because there is a fixed value friction/mass-resistance-to-motion to be overcome and that requires some minimum hp. Once that's overcome, then it becomes closer to a % at a certain point and as the hp increases, the % should decrease, but the difference shouldn't be very significant for the ranges we normally see (guessing). To me it would be some complex formula where it might become 15% for 150-250HP, 14% for 251-350; 13% for 351-450HP, etc and <1% for 1,000,000+HP. For practical purposes, we can just use 15% for any "normal" increase in HP. (Close 'nuff!) Make logical sense?  So the way I figure it, it's neither fixed hp nor % exactly, but % is the most reasonable and easy way to determine a range of hp for most of what we're looking at. Then maybe I dunno what I'm talking about...I'm a Marketing Major. __________________ 2012 Stormy Blue GT PRHT w/Ohlins; Helmholtz; Super-Q; 2.5T; Wilwoods; Racebred Splitter; Sparco Sprints; Cybul Roll Bar 2005 Velocity Red MSM #1093 |
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| 28th October 2020, 18:21 | #12 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Twofer If you're referring to the 1975 Tradesman Van, it may have had the slushiest slush box of a transmission ever. | I don't know, I wasn't taking that many careful notes. I would expect an AT to do 95% efficiency in top gear on lock-up. 90% off lock-up. Maybe 75-80% efficiency off lock-up in lower gears when you are flogging the torque converter. That's the sort of thing you'd see on a dyno and need to explain or understand. How relevant is that to your use? For a few seconds the AT will be dissipating 80 hp as wasted heat. The DynoJet has little ability to measure non-flog. In a drag race car this is wonderful data to have. In street use, you might only spend 5% of your time in low gear slipping the torque converter so who cares what its doing in that mode? __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 18:24 | #13 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Kenata I'm a Marketing Major. | You can convince us whatever bad idea you had was just what we needed... __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 18:58 | #14 |
 | dynotronics1 Sponsor | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tejas Posts: 9,632 | |
| dynotronics1 Sponsor Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tejas Posts: 9,632 | for what its worth to your discussion here; stock 2.0 with mild tuning( correcting for MAF tube size) will do right at 150 BHP on our engine dyno. The very same engine installed in a chassis, running on our dynojet eddy current chassis dyno makes 132 at the wheels. This is about 12% driveline loss, which is just about what the roll down hp( or negative hp) shows for this particular car on the chassis dyno. __________________ WWW.DYNOTRONICSTUNING.COM HOME OF THE WORLDS HIGHEST OUTPUT SUPERCHARGED MX5TURNKEY 2.5 CONVERSIONS FROM 2500$ |
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| 28th October 2020, 20:46 | #15 |
| Twofer Third gear | Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | |
| Twofer Third gear Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | Quote: | Originally Posted by dynotronics1 for what its worth to your discussion here; stock 2.0 with mild tuning( correcting for MAF tube size) will do right at 150 BHP on our engine dyno. The very same engine installed in a chassis, running on our dynojet eddy current chassis dyno makes 132 at the wheels. This is about 12% driveline loss, which is just about what the roll down hp( or negative hp) shows for this particular car on the chassis dyno. | Good stuff. I'd love to see the same sort of engine/chassis test before and after a power adder. __________________ 2006 NC (mostly) track car. 2.5, Esslinger S1 cams, Öhlins coils, Goodwin BF-BBK https://www.youtube.com/user/TurboHappyCar |
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| 28th October 2020, 21:04 | #16 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | All data is good! The one paper I reference above says: "...near the end of the paper the authors also mention 6% loss at the tires with another 5-7% possible if the car is "agressively strap[ped]" to the Dynojet" ...which we also see in coast-down. At a given shop, they have worked out the way they like to strap the car down, so undoubtably get less car-to-car variation, but who's to say from shop-to-shop? In the end, you go to the same shop and watch for hp before and after each mod or tune... forget the actual number. The tuner business would have been better served if DynoJet had just abandoned the term "horsepower" , used "pirate-ninja" instead and just let us move on. __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 28th October 2020, 21:19 | #17 |
| RADOne Overdrive | Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somewhere in rural Missouri Posts: 13,219 | |
| RADOne Overdrive Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somewhere in rural Missouri Posts: 13,219 | How much pirate-ninja do you have? I added 30 more ninjas with just a CAI.  |
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| 28th October 2020, 21:32 | #18 |
| Twofer Third gear | Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | |
| Twofer Third gear Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 313 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Lance Schall All data is good! The one paper I reference... | I had a look through the threads you mentioned, and it's good to see this zombie horse is back from 2001 - 2002. Probably for as long as guys have had cars. One thing I noticed is that they keep referring to inertia dynos. Reading up on them, I now see how "Virtual Dynos" work by looking at acceleration and knowing the weight of the car. I always had the most "horsepower" on downhill runs. (And also see the benefit of some kind of brake dyno. Either eddy current, water, or hydraulic.) Quote: | Originally Posted by Lance Schall In the end, you go to the same shop and watch for hp before and after each mod or tune... forget the actual number. The tuner business would have been better served if DynoJet had just abandoned the term "horsepower" , used "pirate-ninja" instead and just let us move on. | I like 0-60 times, although that depends on the launch. My plan was to do some 4th gear pulls and measure 40-60 mph times, or something like that. __________________ 2006 NC (mostly) track car. 2.5, Esslinger S1 cams, Öhlins coils, Goodwin BF-BBK https://www.youtube.com/user/TurboHappyCar |
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| 29th October 2020, 09:20 | #19 |
| tyhackman15 Third gear | Join Date: May 2014 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 917 | |
| tyhackman15 Third gear Join Date: May 2014 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 917 | Back in the Mazdaspeed world we did 60-100 times, all in the same gear. This gave a great real world comparison. Datalog, share the log, calculate the time (which is also captured in the log). True example of power, no launching, no traction issues (except for the few people that were doing it in <3 seconds from 3k rpms) __________________ 2006 NC, 2.5L, Cams, ITBs, LinkECU, Bilstein Coils, Wilwoods, the list goes on. |
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| 29th October 2020, 17:32 | #20 |
| colt45 Fifth gear | Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Chattavegas Posts: 2,520 | |
| colt45 Fifth gear Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Chattavegas Posts: 2,520 | As noted, this is a really complicated calculation. It has to consider power/torque levels as tooth contact force determines some of the friction loss in the trans and Diff. Torque will also add a little friction to the bearings where the shafts tend to separate. There is friction loss that changes with RPM in the bearings of the engine and whole drivetrain. Even the oil pump uses more power with more RPM (seems like a HP or 2). Accessory loads like the alternator vary with RPM. So, using a single value (I use 12% for chain driven motorcycles and 15% for cars/shafties) for power loss has to be seen as a poor approximation, or rule of thumb, and not to rely on it too heavily. It would not be unreasonable to see, say 6 - 8% loss while cruising at moderate speed with everything at full hot temps and maybe 18 - 20% at WOT at the torque peak. Ever wonder why the first dyno pull is several HP less that the 3rd or 4th? Heat. AND, LOL, how a header set makes +20 HP? __________________ John, KCHA, '06 Sport 6MT, Ohlins 70N/50N, Tune, Tomei LSD IBA/COG, Desmoquattro for pleasure '16.5 Soulful CX-5 |
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| 2nd November 2020, 16:58 | #21 |
| BARMY Third gear | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 989 | |
| BARMY Third gear Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 989 | How come UK manuals only get the same 158hp as American automatics? This makes no sense, when we have 99 octane readily available and 95 everywhere. __________________ NC1 2.0 Sport PRHT. Just lightness, breathing, safety and driver-friendly mods for coaching drivers on track. |
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| 2nd November 2020, 17:33 | #22 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | That's RON octane. Over here we average RON and MON. So, it's much the same gasoline. __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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| 3rd November 2020, 20:03 | #23 |
| BARMY Third gear | Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 989 | |
| BARMY Third gear Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 989 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Lance Schall That's RON octane. Over here we average RON and MON. So, it's much the same gasoline. | So how come your cars get more power - at least the manual ones? __________________ NC1 2.0 Sport PRHT. Just lightness, breathing, safety and driver-friendly mods for coaching drivers on track. |
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| 3rd November 2020, 20:08 | #24 |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member | Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | |
| Lance Schall Supporting Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Jerome, AZ Posts: 39,994 | Metric HP is 1.5% less than SAE HP. And in the EU isn't road tax levied by power? Or maybe just displacement? Anyway, is there a financial incentive to fudge to a smaller number? __________________ 35 years and 360,000 miles 1990 NA - build thread “There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors.” - Muad'Dib, from Dune |
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