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By Lubed, September 8, 2021 in General Discussion

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Lubed 55

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Posted September 8, 2021

These little 4 bangers seem to get a bad rap around the place, but are they really that bad by comparison to the 6 and 8 cylinders of the same era? Sure they suffer oil/coolant leaks, valve stem seal leaks, timing chains and guides failure etc  but what N series engines of the same generation don't have issues? Is it due to the lack of power output compared their big brothers that the 4s receive their bad reputation? Maybe they are just the engine we love to hate?

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Eagle 1865

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Posted September 8, 2021

If you made a list of issues the 4 cylinders would have likely the most. But you are correct about the 6's and 8's, they aren't what id call reliable either. N series engines are just money pits in general after certain age and mileage.

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balancerider 876

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Posted September 8, 2021

@Eagle N series petrols for sure 

N47/57 seem pretty sound. 

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Posted September 8, 2021

N52s are arguably one of the most reliable engines BMW has ever made, not exactly toyota 4AFE reliable, but still reliable and shitloads more entertaining than a 90s economy toyota engine. 

Whereas the 4 pots are less reliable than a 4AFE, and less entertaining. There really isnt anything redeeming about them to justify the reliability issues, spending money and time on solving problems on something that doesnt bring smiles when working isnt particularly appealing. 

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zero 1162

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Posted September 8, 2021

The six and eights of the same era kind of crosses two eras.

You had the m54 which is an exceptional engine, and the m62 which apart from needing timing chain guides every 200k kms is also a great engine.

And then you had the later six and eight engines which were the 'n' series and which I know little about.

Having owned a n46 I can say its the worst engine bmw ever made.

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Posted September 8, 2021

6 hours ago, zero said:

The six and eights of the same era kind of crosses two eras.

You had the m54 which is an exceptional engine, and the m62 which apart from needing timing chain guides every 200k kms is also a great engine.

And then you had the later six and eight engines which were the 'n' series and which I know little about.

Having owned a n46 I can say its the worst engine bmw ever made.

The N62 of that era is a dumpster fire of a thing too. Big list of potentially cripplingly expensive things that always go wrong.

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Olaf 3455

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Posted September 8, 2021 (edited)

Having run an N62B44 for 4.5 years and nearly 30k kms, my experience is that the N62 V8 is fekkin' brilliant.  

Sure, valve stem seals are a given (mine were replaced), and this is bad news.  

The coolant tube is a risk, though that risk has two mitigants in the form of annual coolant flush and replacement, and the collapsible tube replacement.  For context, this replacement - should it be needed -  is less costly than the M6x and it's timing chains and guides!

The N62B44 is smooth, very powerful for it's capacity (just compare with M6x), lightweight, and bloody economical on a trip.   In short, another sophisticated modern engine.  It compares very favourably to the N4x motors (which I agree are a disaster).  The N62 needs gaskets to stem oil leaks, and plugs/coils just like M5x motors (or most other BMW non-diesel motors).  What's the big deal?

People were bagging the M54 just five or six years ago; now they're understood.  N52 is approaching the same status (yes, you all know you were freaking out about failing expensive electric water pumps until recently!), and is now becoming accepted and respected.  The N54 is approaching the same (do fix your vacuum and exhaust leaks, don't fack it up with outrageous MHD tunes).

In summary, the N62 is rather good and should absolutely not be lumped in with N42/N46.  N62 simply needs regular maintenance, and does not respond favourably to neglect (like pretty much any BMW except perhaps the M10?).  The N62 is frequently encountered in poor condition after some oik has tried to run them like a Camry.  

If you want bullet-proof out of a BMW you're shopping the wrong badge, buy a Landcruiser.

PS:  One assumes you meant SATAN, not Satin?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Olaf

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freaknout 49

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Posted September 8, 2021

My N62B44 engine was faultless for 30k miles over 6 years. We had a few "other" issues though with the e60. Painful at the time but didn't break the bank...

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Posted September 9, 2021

On 9/8/2021 at 6:33 PM, Jacko said:

N52s are arguably one of the most reliable engines BMW has ever made, not exactly toyota 4AFE reliable, but still reliable and shitloads more entertaining than a 90s economy toyota engine. 

Whereas the 4 pots are less reliable than a 4AFE, and less entertaining. There really isnt anything redeeming about them to justify the reliability issues, spending money and time on solving problems on something that doesnt bring smiles when working isnt particularly appealing. 

BMW's 3A and 4A equivalent engines were the M10 and M42\M44, not quite Toyota reliability but not far off. Along with late 80's M20 and M30 engines a N52 isnt even the same league from a reliability point . Even though the N52 block itself is fine it suffers from all the planned adolescence attached to it like most modern BMW's.(components, pipe work, sensors ,seals etc)  Not an issue with people that have money\knowledge to maintain it, but that ain't that average consumer so its generally not considered reliable by anyone who isn't the former.

11 hours ago, Olaf said:

Having run an N62B44 for 4.5 years and nearly 30k kms, my experience is that the N62 V8 is fekkin' brilliant.  

Sure, valve stem seals are a given (mine were replaced), and this is bad news.  

The coolant tube is a risk, though that risk has two mitigants in the form of annual coolant flush and replacement, and the collapsible tube replacement.  For context, this replacement - should it be needed -  is less costly than the M6x and it's timing chains and guides!

The N62B44 is smooth, very powerful for it's capacity (just compare with M6x), lightweight, and bloody economical on a trip.   In short, another sophisticated modern engine.  It compares very favourably to the N4x motors (which I agree are a disaster).  The N62 needs gaskets to stem oil leaks, and plugs/coils just like M5x motors (or most other BMW non-diesel motors).  What's the big deal?

People were bagging the M54 just five or six years ago; now they're understood.  N52 is approaching the same status (yes, you all know you were freaking out about failing expensive electric water pumps until recently!), and is now becoming accepted and respected.  The N54 is approaching the same (do fix your vacuum and exhaust leaks, don't fack it up with outrageous MHD tunes).

In summary, the N62 is rather good and should absolutely not be lumped in with N42/N46.  N62 simply needs regular maintenance, and does not respond favourably to neglect (like pretty much any BMW except perhaps the M10?).  The N62 is frequently encountered in poor condition after some oik has tried to run them like a Camry.  

If you want bullet-proof out of a BMW you're shopping the wrong badge, buy a Landcruiser.

PS:  One assumes you meant SATAN, not Satin?

I still bag M54 even after doing nearly 100,000km in 5 years. It was reliable because it was looked after and i spent a couple of 1000 replacing all the weak points. Nice engine but not from a true reliability point, even though it's far from the worst. (same situation as N52 and many other BMW engines, too many weak points )

M10\M20\M30 are all largely the same formula. Simple,  under stressed and refined over many years. I doubt many people were scrapping the car because of engine troubles unlike some of some of these early N series models. BMW parts and procedures may be more readily available, but labour costs aren't getting any cheaper and that's makes up a chunk of the bill. 

Neglected\not have to spend money but still able to get you to A>B is the real definition of reliability for the average person.

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Posted September 9, 2021

What will be interesting will be seeing how the B58s age, having passed Toyotas reliability requirements. Either BMW up'd their game, or Toyota dropped theirs  

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Posted September 10, 2021

On 9/8/2021 at 6:17 PM, balancerider said:

@Eagle N series petrols for sure 

N47/57 seem pretty sound. 

Agreed, the diesels of that generation seem pretty tough by comparison to the petrol's. Maybe due to the lower operating temps/greater thermal efficiency of a diesel engine that help to not cook gaskets and seals etc.

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Posted September 10, 2021

On 9/9/2021 at 7:35 PM, Eagle said:

M10\M20\M30 are all largely the same formula. Simple,  under stressed and refined over many years. I doubt many people were scrapping the car because of engine troubles unlike some of some of these early N series models. BMW parts and procedures may be more readily available, but labour costs aren't getting any cheaper and that's makes up a chunk of the bill. 

Neglected\not have to spend money but still able to get you to A>B is the real definition of reliability for the average person.

Back around '99-'01 in UK M20 (and M30 to a lesser degree) had a reputation for head gasket failure, cambelt and water pump failure.  Clearly a result of neglect (or not updating the head bolts?), but now we're past that, it's understood.

Get you A-B with minimal maintenance => reliability?  I think that's a great distillation!

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leichtbau 526

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Posted September 10, 2021

41 minutes ago, Olaf said:

Back around '99-'01 in UK M20 (and M30 to a lesser degree) had a reputation for head gasket failure, cambelt and water pump failure.  Clearly a result of neglect (or not updating the head bolts?), but now we're past that, it's understood.

Get you A-B with minimal maintenance => reliability?  I think that's a great distillation!

M30 would have struggled with cambelt failure I think...

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Posted September 10, 2021

as I said, "to a lesser degree".

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Posted September 10, 2021

On 9/8/2021 at 6:17 PM, balancerider said:

@Eagle N series petrols for sure 

N47/57 seem pretty sound. 

This from Autocar:

The 2.0-litre diesel engine in pre-2014 facelift X3s is codenamed N47. According to reports, it has a reputation for excessive timing chain wear leading to premature failure. BMW took action to fix the problem, culminating in the fitment of the new and uprated B47 engine from 2014. 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1826001 discusses N47 & N57

this is sobering viewing!  I'm about to buy an N57...  though he takes a sensible approach to preventative maintenance.  Other reports on a basic google search indicates the N57 is largely reliable...

 

Earlier version:

 

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Posted September 10, 2021

10 hours ago, Olaf said:

Back around '99-'01 in UK M20 (and M30 to a lesser degree) had a reputation for head gasket failure, cambelt and water pump failure.  Clearly a result of neglect (or not updating the head bolts?), but now we're past that, it's understood.

Get you A-B with minimal maintenance => reliability?  I think that's a great distillation!

M20 are a more head weakness than gasket failure, certainly not the strongest engine but they still hold up well given their age and as stated cheap\simple to repair if needed. Cam belt was always stated shorter interval than average but people driving to cambelt snap isnt uncommon in any car. Water pumps are water pumps, some go longer some shorter than expected. 4\6 of my M30 engined car experience head gasket failure when flushing the block due to neglected cooling systems, all done 330k-500k. Certainly are more susceptible but not all exclusive to BMW's of that era.    

A-B with minimal maintenance => reliability? Reliability usually encompasses durability and simplicity. Generally people who aren't spending money on their car all the time consider it reliable for all intents and purposes.

You got to remember the average non car person can't even or doesn't want to change a light bulb in a vehicle. 

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balancerider 876

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Posted September 10, 2021

@Olaf reports of N47 timing chain issues I think are a case of internet echo chamber magnifying what is a clear issue affecting a small number of a common engine. 30k km oil change interval is pretty unlikely to help...

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Posted September 11, 2021

@balancerider could be, mate.  I've heard of - and seen evidence of - intake manifold and glow plug issues on N57.  Seems there was a recall on the intake manifold?  Still digging.

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Posted September 11, 2021 (edited)

@Olaf Only recall I'm aware of is the EGR cooler on 2012-2017 N57-engined models (also common to N47). Not sure if the manifold may have been an issue on earlier ones. What car are you looking at?

n=2 but both of the N47's in our family are >250k km without issue

Edited September 11, 2021 by balancerider

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Posted September 11, 2021

The N47S seems to have avoided the timing chain issue, and Alpina used it in their D3 E90's. I'm inclined to agree with @balancerider wrt N47 chain issues being magnified by the internet. Yes, there are noisy chains out there, and yes, there was a recall, and yes, some failed, but as always, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

In my experience if it hasn't let go before 100xxx km, it's not going to.

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Posted September 11, 2021

That perspective hardly accounts for tensioner or guide wear in general (in addition to the chain itself).  One would be foolish to apply that logic to, say, an M60 or M42.

@balancerider good to hear you're enjoying positive ownership with N47.

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Posted September 11, 2021

Funnily enough, just before I hit submit reply I thought about mentioning the obvious about the service life of tensioners and guides, but I thought I'd entertain myself and see how long it took someone to jump on it.

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