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RSinNH R I originally posted this on the mark7 section, but think it might be more appropriate here. So, my car is in transit. I expect to pick it up in another week or two. I've been reading a lot about the direct injection engines / carbon build up / crappy sulfer & ethanol fuel, trying to decide which oil I'll use. For background, I've been changing my own oil since I got my license 30 years ago. I've primarily used Mobile 1, and have never had an oil related issue. I've had 4 cars, among many others, I drove over 150,000mi. My current car is a 2010 Jetta TDI with 192,000mi that I plan on giving to my daughter when she gets her license. I'm not married to any brand, and have been comparing spec sheets. I don't want to spend $ just for a name, but I will put up for quality. I also like a deal. (Always looking for that unicorn). So, I'd like some feedback on my thought process, not on brands per say. First, I want a VW spec oil. I think an oil with a higher total base number is better for the fuel we have here in the USA. The higher the HTHS (shear), is better for our higher output / turbo motors. Finally, from all I've read (much taken with a grain of salt), the lower the SAP, the lower the carbon build on the intake. Problem is, I can not find one that fits. Most low and mid SAP oils (around .8, good for less carbon build up), have lower TBN (around 7.0. Sulfur fuel dilutes base, so it's usefulness doesn't last as many miles). Most fully synthetics seem to have high HTHS numbers. Basically, the best for lubrication / oil life, are contrary to lower carbon (507 type). So I have searched for a compromise oil. On one side are oils for diesels and multi catalytic cars. On the other side are high lubricty,et al., oils with high SAP numbers. So I've searched for a compromise, and I think I've found one. Mobil1 0w-40 European car is highly regarded on Lubrizol, and bob the oil guy sites. It meets both VW 502 and MB229.5. Probably be fine for the life of the car and better than most, especially considering the price, and, I would be happy to use it. But, after searching I think I found better. Common quality low/mid SAP oil stack up like this: HTHS 3.5, SAP .80, TBN 7.2. Mobil1 0w40: HTHS 3.8, SAP 1.3, TBN 11.8. The oil I found stacks up like this: VW 502 & MB 229.5, HTHS 3.7, SAP 1.1, TBN 10.1. Seems to me to be a good compromise. Has high HTHS, a Lower SAP (almost halfway between M1 and a low/mid SAP) and a high TBN for resistance to dilution. Anyone disagree with my thought process? Am I focusing on, or emphasizing the wrong things? Everyone has a favorite brand, but I'm looking more for validation on my thought process. I'll post the brand and type after I get some feedback. Thanks for your consideration. #1 · May 25, 2015 I originally posted this on the mark7 section, but think it might be more appropriate here. So, my car is in transit. I expect to pick it up in another week or two. I've been reading a lot about the direct injection engines / carbon build up / crappy sulfer & ethanol fuel, trying to decide which oil I'll use. For background, I've been changing my own oil since I got my license 30 years ago. I've primarily used Mobile 1, and have never had an oil related issue. I've had 4 cars, among many others, I drove over 150,000mi. My current car is a 2010 Jetta TDI with 192,000mi that I plan on giving to my daughter when she gets her license. I'm not married to any brand, and have been comparing spec sheets. I don't want to spend $ just for a name, but I will put up for quality. I also like a deal. (Always looking for that unicorn). So, I'd like some feedback on my thought process, not on brands per say. First, I want a VW spec oil. I think an oil with a higher total base number is better for the fuel we have here in the USA. The higher the HTHS (shear), is better for our higher output / turbo motors. Finally, from all I've read (much taken with a grain of salt), the lower the SAP, the lower the carbon build on the intake. Problem is, I can not find one that fits. Most low and mid SAP oils (around .8, good for less carbon build up), have lower TBN (around 7.0. Sulfur fuel dilutes base, so it's usefulness doesn't last as many miles). Most fully synthetics seem to have high HTHS numbers. Basically, the best for lubrication / oil life, are contrary to lower carbon (507 type). So I have searched for a compromise oil. On one side are oils for diesels and multi catalytic cars. On the other side are high lubricty,et al., oils with high SAP numbers. So I've searched for a compromise, and I think I've found one. Mobil1 0w-40 European car is highly regarded on Lubrizol, and bob the oil guy sites. It meets both VW 502 and MB229.5. Probably be fine for the life of the car and better than most, especially considering the price, and, I would be happy to use it. But, after searching I think I found better. Common quality low/mid SAP oil stack up like this: HTHS 3.5, SAP .80, TBN 7.2. Mobil1 0w40: HTHS 3.8, SAP 1.3, TBN 11.8. The oil I found stacks up like this: VW 502 & MB 229.5, HTHS 3.7, SAP 1.1, TBN 10.1. Seems to me to be a good compromise. Has high HTHS, a Lower SAP (almost halfway between M1 and a low/mid SAP) and a high TBN for resistance to dilution. Anyone disagree with my thought process? Am I focusing on, or emphasizing the wrong things? Everyone has a favorite brand, but I'm looking more for validation on my thought process. I'll post the brand and type after I get some feedback. Thanks for your consideration. See less See more Sort by Oldest first Oldest first Newest first Most reactions #2 · May 25, 2015 (Edited) Ive been a member of bobtheoilguy for over 5 years, lots of good info. I have used M1 oil for over 14 year with good results, but i got even better results with Liqui Moly(better results then Euro M1); a much quieter engine on a 1998 Dodge SUV V8 and a 2001 BMW with a V8. For a VW, i would recommend Top Tec 4200 5w-30. http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_3706.html?OpenDocument&land=DE I use same Liqiu Moly oil to lube my pistol. If Moly is not good good enough and you have the cash to burn, then get your self Penzoil Pure Plus that is made out of natural gas. Over the years i have noticed that quality of oil has improved which is not the issue. It is the Oil filters that have barely improved. VW/Audi recommends oil change every 10k, yet OEM filters look like a dirty mop after 5k. If you are borderline OCD, then change oil filter every 2.5k and oil change every 5k. Yes, oil tests will tell you that your oil will last 10k, but no test that i know of will tell you that a paper filter should be used beyond 5k. Mercedes OEM oil filters are the only ones that i know of have made a leap in the past 3 years and are ok to use for 10k. VW/Audi is still dragging its feet in oil filter department, and so is the rest of the oil filter global companies. FYI NAPA stores sell various flavors of Liqui Moly oils. 1L(1qt), 5L(5qts) - 158L drums. #3 · May 28, 2015 Thanks for the reply. I was hoping to get some more responses to the qualities of the oil that might be best for the 2.0 Turbo DI engines in the Mark VII GTI. I'm glad you've had good experience with M1. I have too, but those engines are quite different than the GTI's. I haven't looked at the specs for the pennzoil. Ill check it out. Anyone have any thoughts on what spec / my thought process, of what oil chemistry would be the best balance for 2015 GTI. Ill choose a brand after I figure out the best specs. Thanks #6 · Jun 3, 2015 (Edited) Stick to Bob oil forum, far more info there then here. As i said before; most todays oils are good for 10k, its the oil filter that needs to be changed more frequently. I drive 1k miles per week in the city in a Passat with 1.8tsi Gen3 engine. So i change oil every 5k miles. Every night on my way home, i perform Italian tuning for 1 mile, to remove carbon build up. Show more replies 0 Reply #4 · May 30, 2015 VW 504/507 oils have considerably lower detergent levels which is not good with the higher sulfur gas we have. if you're willing to not care about using VW502.00 oils.... some good choices are: Shell Rotella T6 5w40 Chevron Delo 400LE 5w40 Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck or if you want to spend the extra money, Renewable Lubes BioSyn Xtra 5w40 (I would go for the Low Ash formula) http://renewablelube.com/gasoline.html #5 · Jun 3, 2015

BsickPassat said: VW 504/507 oils have considerably lower detergent levels which is not good with the higher sulfur gas we have. if you're willing to not care about using VW502.00 oils.... some good choices are: Shell Rotella T6 5w40 Chevron Delo 400LE 5w40 Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck or if you want to spend the extra money, Renewable Lubes BioSyn Xtra 5w40 (I would go for the Low Ash formula) http://renewablelube.com/gasoline.html Click to expand...

507 has more then enough detergents. Unless you expect your 10th generation grand kids to keep driving your car. 0 Reply #10 · Jun 9, 2015 (Edited) In regards to bobistheoilguy, yes there is a LOT more noise there that there used to be but there are a couple of tribologists that still regularly post there. Molakule and Solarent, although they usually only get involved in formulation discussions but not particularly oil brand or car brand discussions. Shannow posts good info as well and I believe that he is a bearing designer. He also posts data to support most of his claim, which is rare on that site. In regards to proper oil choice, yes, there is data to show that low SAPS are the way to go in DI engines. Not sure about VW, but most Audi dealers have moved to the mid/low SAPS Castrol and are no longer using VW502 oils as dealer fill. Something relatively new info in regards to DI studies shows that high calcium oils are bad for intake deposits as well so that would rule out oils like Mobil1 0W40. http://papers.sae.org/2014-32-0092/ Personally, I would probably go with an ACEA C3 low/mid-SAPS oil like Mobil1 5W30 ESP or Motul X-clean 5W30 and change it every 5k miles. I second the recommendation of using Renewable Lube Inc. if you're comfortable running a non-certified oil. #14 · Jun 12, 2015 This is the first that I've heard of a coating on the intake valves to prevent deposits from sticking. Hope it works as I plan on keeping the EA888 gen 3 for the long run. #18 · Jun 13, 2015 It was discussed many times in GolfMK7 subsection. 0 Reply #15 · Jun 12, 2015 Did North American Gen 3 TSI's get the additional injector? That was rumored a while back, but I do not know if it made it into NA cars. #16 · Jun 13, 2015 Um...Thanks for the replies. Didn't mean to get peoples blood pressure up so much. Seems the recommendation is to use an VW approved oil that actually is designed for Diesels 504 507 (low SAP), then change it more frequently for the higher sulfur / lower quality fuel we have in N.A. (TBN washout). I was leaning towards Motul X-Cess, since it seemed to split the SAP - TBN tradeoff. With your inputs, I'm thinking now of the Motul specific (and I'm not married to any brand - just their website is the easiest to navigate with the most accessible data). They show both a 502 / 505 oil & a 504 / 507 (seems developed for diesel particulate filter vehicles). What is the difference between a 502 and a 504 oil, if not - designed for gas and diesel respectively?? The manual is no real help: for "Gasoline engines - VW 502 00 , VW 503 00, VW 504 00." Further; "Engine oil quality is based not only on requirements for engines and exhaust treatment systems, but also on fuel quality. Engine oil comes into contact with fuel and fuel residue in all internal combustion engines, causing engine oil to age and its lubricating qualities to deteriorate." Thats great, but we have different fuel standards here, vs. the E.U. My TDI made it simple - use 507. I'm good on filters, any thoughts on above? The goal is to minimize the carbon build on the intake, while still maintaining the oils full range of qualities, as long as possible (i.e. longer change intervals). Thanks #19 · Jun 14, 2015

RSinNH said: The goal is to minimize the carbon build on the intake, while still maintaining the oils full range of qualities, as long as possible (i.e. longer change intervals). Click to expand...

That is why I asked you (and others) if the North American Mk7's received the additional injector. If they did, I really don't think you need to give carbon buildup as high of a priority with whatever oil selection you make, at least not compared to some of the older engine designs. So...DO the Mk7's have this phantasmal extra injector? Or not? Show more replies 0 Reply #17 · Jun 13, 2015 If you want to use Motul, then use it. As far as carbon deposits, then get your self an oil catch can, that seems to be the fix to prevent most of the build up on valves. Look in Golfmk7 Subforum on this site. #23 · Oct 18, 2015 RS - What oil did you decide on? I just picked up an new GTI myself and I'm probably going to go with Mobil1 0w-40 when the time comes to change out the factory fill. Mobil1 0w-40 seems to produce good UOA results in most engines. Finding something better is difficult. Possibly but not necessarily small improvements and a higher $$ cost. I don't think it has been determined yet if the Gen 3 EA888 engine still has the carbon build up issues that the earlier engines had. I could be wrong on that but I have seen no reports of it so far. Catch cans don't seem to have any significant effect on carbon build up from what I've been able to find. Terry Dyson has suggested that Renewable Lubricants oil would be a good choice for preventing carbon build up as it provides a superior ring seal, even with fuel dilution, and thus less blow-by. I might consider that but of course it's not VW approved. I have no intention of going 10k miles between oil changes. I'll go with 5k changes. The cost for 6 quarts of synthetic and a filter is maybe 50 bucks. Cheap insurance in my opinion if you plan to keep your vehicle for the long term. #24 · Oct 30, 2015 I use motul I do not have the quantitative number to why I use motul but I can share my observations. I had a 2010 gti w/ Revo stage 1. Initially I used Mobil 1 0w-40 for the first few oil changes and then I switched to Motul X-cess 8100. To me M1 made the engine aggressive during acceleration. Its very easy to find at walmart making for a inexpensive oil change. Engine Idle was sort of noisy for a car that had less than 50k miles. What made me switch was when I opened up my oil cap on 2 different occasion to see smoke come out. After that I switched to Motul. With motul the power deliver was more smooth, less aggressive. Engine idle was quieter. The car felt slower but the engine overall seemed healthier. Most importantly i havn't exxperince smoke after opening the oil cap since switching over. The change was recommended by a couple of local mechanics that I visit. #25 · Jan 4, 2016 I am also researching the best oil to move forward with and have been searching/reading threads for a couple weeks now. I was trying to pull the stats of the Liqui Moly oils (0w40/5w40), but their spec sheets are not giving precise numbers. For SAPS %, it says 1.0-1.6/100g - wouldn't that be the difference between a mid and high SAPS oil? I like the idea of going with a pure synthetic for these engines (Group IV) oil, but have not heard a lot of reviews or experiences with the 0w40 liqui Moly, which seems to be their "best" oil. I like the theory in this thread of going with a mid SAPS oil, but the more I read, a mid/high SAPS oil seems to keep engines safer. Getting a valve cleaning every so often or trying the Italian tune-up might be a good alternative to sacrificing the SAPS content. just some thoughts. #26 · Jan 13, 2016 I've used LiquiMoly 5W40 and 0W40 Synthoil Premium and love it. Had a Blackstone analysis done and posted here maybe in... 2010? Positive results. At the advice in this forum- I did use the Shell T6 Rotella 5W40 for 4 OCI's and then got a misfire issue. When my mechanic was going thru the possible symptoms he asked what oil i used. When i told him it's a full synthetic deisel truck oil he shook his head and said that not a good idea. Too thick, and that could have an impact. (He never changed anything in the car because everything he tested and inspected came out ok.) I immediately switched to the German made Castrol 0W30 and ran that for the next 2 years, no misfires, or hiccups. I will use LiquiMoly or GC in my next MK6 R or MK7 GTI. #27 · Feb 3, 2016 I think a lot of people are obsessing on "specs". We have had high performance turbo and non turbo engines for a long time, and VW reciprocating piston engines, while refined, are nothing special. Full synthetics can go a long time between changes. I have now upped my changes to between 30, 000 and 40,000 miles. You read that right. And here's why: For those that speak of "oil burning" it is important to understand that we are not talking about a two stroke motor here. Oil either gets by bad valve stem seals, piston rings (but rgarely unless it gets in from the valve stems leaking) or being sucked in the pcv valve into the intake and burned that way. With lower grade petroleum based oils there is evaporative loss from engine heat. Better and tighter machining tolerances in modern engines have gone a long way to eliminate or reduce these problems, but lets look at something. With diester based synthetics like NEO and others, shear is almost non existant. And if you have to keep adding a quart now and then you are replenishing the stock. Yes, the filter is important and a good by pass would be wonderful but not practical, so change your filter if you must at 10,000 miles. If the oil turms black it is doing its job of trapping carbon, but where does the carbon come from? Coking. When oil goes through the turbo it gets hot. It cooks it. And you get coke. So an oil that resists coking is best. That would be the diester based, not the petroleum based synthetics. Less work for the filter then. Think about this: has anyone here on any forum post had a lubrication based engine failure (other than one caused by a broken oil pump?). Probably not. Lighter weight oils run cooler with less drag but still provide protection at the molecular level. And you will get better gas mileage. 35 years ago they thought we were insane to use zero weight oils and we proved them wrong. Now it is accepted. Just for point of reference: I have used 0W-5 exclusively since 1976 or so in everything from hand built race motors, motorcycles, cars, construction equipment, generators, and anything with a 4 stroke engine. It spins freely at 30 below zero, works in 110 degree heat, increases gas mileage and wears like iron. Never a single issue with wear. As an example, my work truck was a 1 ton GMC flatbed with a 454 and a blower running 6 pounds of boost. I towed 16,000 pounds up and down 23% dirt roads for 16 years and when I sold the truck with 115K miles on it the compression was 2 lbs higher than new (probably from carbon on the pistons). Only did a total of 4 oil changes. Had to add a quart about every 3000 miles. So don't worry so much about the oil you use. Short change intervals waste money. The factory interval of 10K is very conservative. It has to be. They have a warranty to protect. If you want, look up the Falex Ball test and see if you can see a video somewhere. This will open your eyes as to what different oils can do. #28 · Mar 30, 2016 Well, I have an 2015 s3, I know is not a gti but its pretty much the same engine. I actually do alot search on this since I had my 2007 mkv and my advice would be stick to mid saps, low noack group v oil. The only one that I found that met my standards was redline 5w40 euro series. I have just got my uoa from blackstone and everything looks fine, so for 5k miles on it and no oil has be added. But threre is plenty of great oils out there that wanted to use, but the lack of info on noack and saps lvl steer me away from them. Anyway hope the info helps. Insert Quotes Post Reply

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