Ph Gh Kh Co2 ??? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

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You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.You should upgrade or use an alternative browser. ph gh kh co2 ???

• Thread starter Thread starter Lee77
• Start date Start date 8 May 2018

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Lee77

Member

Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Hey all, I'm finding it really hard to understand the relationship between ph gh kh and how important they are when I'm injecting co2. Can anyone please explain in a simple way? I've done some tests on the tap water I use for water changes and the tank water as it is now. Tap water Ph = 7.6 Gh = 15 degs (drops of test solution) Kh = 9 degs Nitrate= 40 ppm Tank water Ph = 6.6 Gh = 15 degs Kh = 5 degs Nitrate = 40 ppm Nitrite = 0 Ammonia = 0 Temp 25 c 180 litres Lighting 2 x t5 wave point 6500k tropical wave 6 hours a day. 50% water change each week. I'm injecting co2 through a reactor. EI dosing leaving out the potassium nitrate as its high from my tap water. I'm supplementing extra pottasium and iron. Added an extra filter and power head to aid flow, I have a left to right circular flow. What I'm wanting to know is am I doing everything right ? I have hard water does this mean I need to inject more co2 ? Some plants are not doing so well. What are your thoughts? The above photo is hygrophila siamensis 53b which I'm told is a easy plant to grow. It's really not doing well stunted growth, holes in some leaves, brown algae. I'm really at my wits end I'm not spending anymore ££££ on it. Thanks Lee.

X3NiTH

Member

Joined 13 Apr 2014 Messages 1,669 You have an active substrate that is buffering the pH down to 6.6 by sucking out the carbonates from your water (it will eventually stop doing this when it is saturated with carbonates and can't buffer anymore, subsequent water changes after this point will raise the pH closer to what the tap pH is). With CO₂ injection you are probably going to need to drop the pH to below 5.6 to get a green indicating drop checker. Aquatoon - Planted CRS Tank

sparkyweasel

Member

Joined 30 Jun 2011 Messages 3,135 What substrate are you using? What's the time schedule for lights and CO₂, and what does your drop checker show, especially at lights-on? A useful thing is a pH profile, measuring it every half hour from before your CO₂ goes on, until lights out. You don't need more CO₂ with hard water. The buffering effect of the hardness may show a smaller pH drop for the same level of CO₂, but the CO₂ is still in there. Have you got fish or shrimps etc in the tank yet?

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Thanks for the replies. I'm using tropica soil. The drop checker goes green but not lime green and is positioned 4" above substrate on the oppersite side to the inlet. Yes I have fish in all tetras and a few dwarf neon rainbows. Co2 on at 10:30 till 19:00 Lights on at 14:00 till 20:00 3.5 hours before lights on is this ok? I've been turning the co2 on earlier by 30 mins per week and turning up the bubble count ( it's that fast I can't count it) to try and get the Dc to a nice lime green. I'll do a ph profile at the weekend as working all week. Any ideas how I can get a lower ph ? It won't seem to go below 6.6 even when using a reactor which is supposed to give 100% saturation before it enters the tank. Many thanks Lee. A

alto

Member

Joined 24 Dec 2014 Messages 6,161 I've used Tropica Aquarium Soil in several tanks for a few years, haven't noticed any significant effects on pH or KH Perhaps there are some dramatic effect substrates out there & I've just not used them 😉 When starting a tank I do frequent water changes (similar to Tropica 90 Day App), then weeekly water changes of 50-70%

X3NiTH

Member

Joined 13 Apr 2014 Messages 1,669 Tropica Soil is an active substrate, every waterchange it will try to buffer the water as much as it can until it exhausts this ability. Tropica recommends water changes every few days after first use. This will help the soil and water reach an equilibrium which is important especially If CO₂ is controlled by a controller which will need to be carefully adjusted after every water change to compensate for the soil buffering potential. Aquatoon - Planted CRS Tank

X3NiTH

Member

Joined 13 Apr 2014 Messages 1,669 Alto from the photo you can see it's the prilled substrate and not the soil powder, saw a bag in P@H yesterday (only ever saw them stock the powder soil before), I read the back label and it states it's an active soil buffering to about pH6.5 (like shrimp substrate), the Tropica website states the same thing but doesn't mention the pH, pretty sure the bag said pH6.5. Didn't buy it so can't check the label, OP Lee77 could still have the bag to check re the pH unless he's tossed the bag. Aquatoon - Planted CRS Tank

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Yes it does say ph 6.5 I may need to up my maintenance looking at the (90 day app) up water changes to 2 a week maybe? The substrate has been in around 6 months Also when I bought it I was told u don't vac it like gravel. So I've been hovering my hose pipe just above the substrate surface to remove any detritus in the places I can get to without ruining the planting. Many thanks Lee.

sparkyweasel

Member

Joined 30 Jun 2011 Messages 3,135 With fish present, I wouldn't rush into changing the CO₂, that another job best done at the weekend, or whenever you can monitor the effect on the fish. It may be a distribution problem. Are the plants doing better in some areas than others? I'm sure there's a thread on here somewhere explaining the relationship between CO₂, pH and KH. You could have a search and read up a bit before you get your pH profile done. There are some people on here who are pretty good at explaining the science stuff. More water changes is always a good idea, especially with CO₂ and high light.

ian_m

Moderator

UKAPS Team Joined 25 Jan 2012 Messages 5,450 Location Eastleigh Your algae is symptomatic of poor CO2 levels for the amount of light & ferts you are supplying. Reduce light intensity and period until you get your CO2 flow and levels sorted (and ferts probably). You haven't stated your filtration, you will need at least 1800litre/hour for a 180 litre tank. I have 5200 litre/hour on my 180 litre tank. My drop checker is lovely green where ever I place it in my tank, running 4 T5 tubes for 8 hours, no algae. Do not alter EI dosing based on your tested water report, you clearly have some interference with the nitrate test kit, small amounts of chloride in water can influence nitrate results. You did leave your tap water 24/48 hours to degas chlorine, before testing ? Chloramine doesn't degas. Presence of dechlorinator will cause false ammonia readings, normally 0% regardless of actual ammonia levels. Virtually 100% of all people who alter EI dosing based on their water test results end up with plant health issues. Oh you have, now 101% or people. Please start dosing potassium nitrate as per EI levels on alternate days. The yellowing of leaves can be symptomatic of poor nitrate levels and/or iron. I assume you are dosing micros on alternate days and not with macros and/or the extra potassium. The iron in the micros will react with the phosphate in the macro/phosphate and precipitate out of solution, leading to plant iron deficiencies. Could also be low magnesium, I assume you are dosing full magnesium sulphate and again haven't altered your dosing as you have falsely assumed you are getting magnesium from your hard water ? As to fixing :- - Sort CO2 flow, distribution and levels. Normally x10 tank volume flow is recommend, so 1800litre/hour. - Lime green drop checker at lights in, every where in the tank is what is required. - pH profile will help indicate CO2 levels. A pH drop of 1 pH will be produced by 30ppm CO2, regardless of water hardness. - Dose proper EI levels, not some variation of. Excess ferts will not be an issue for live stock. - If magnesium & nitrate deficiency were the issue, the leaves will green up and recover (not algae free though). - If iron deficiency leaves will not recover, but new leaves will be OK. - Remove any badly covered algae leaves, they will not recover. - Algae on hardscape can be treated by spot dosing liquid carbon from a dropper. - Algae on some plants can be treated by dipping in a diluted solution of liquid carbon. However too strong it will kill the plant, too weak it will not work. Some plants don't like liquid carbon. - Worse comes to worse, black the tank out for 3-4 days. Wrap in blankets, lights & CO2 off, no feeding fish, no peeking. This should kill all algae. - Make sure you fix your issues or else algae will simply move back in.

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Excellent response Ian Thankyou. I have 2 jbl external filters ones a 1501 and the other 901 and a sicce stream pump rated at 2000 litres per hour. I have the outlet from the 1501 at the front left corner along with the steam pump and the outlet from the 901 at the rear right to create a left to right circular flow both the inlets are in either corner at the rear. Injecting co2 thro a max mix reactor on the 1501 outlet. I think the flow is ok as all the plants sway in the flow. Stem plants when I prune are growing side shoots but really don't seem to bush out as id like them. EI dosing bought from aquarium plant food uk, i follow the instructions macro one day micro the other, 40ml of each. I will make another mix including the potassium nitrate. How have you positioned your outlets to get the flow right? and how do you inject co2 ? Should I prune the worst affected plants right back ? Thanks again Lee.

ian_m

Moderator

UKAPS Team Joined 25 Jan 2012 Messages 5,450 Location Eastleigh

Lee77 said: How have you positioned your outlets to get the flow right? and how do you inject co2 ? Click to expand...

I have a JBL e1501 @ 1400l/hr, the Juwel internal filter at 600l/hr and a 3200l/hr power head. This is my flow all the way across the back. The power head is now located on the front (not as in the video) and pushes the water along and down the front to create flow across the front of the tank and into the corner near the Juwel filter.

Lee77 said: Should I prune the worst affected plants right back Click to expand...

Yes, unless you treat with liquid carbon, which may or may not damage the plants, the algae will not go away.

Lee77 said: I have 2 jbl external filters ones a 1501 and the other 901 and a sicce stream pump rated at 2000 litres per hour. Click to expand...

A picture will help 😀

dw1305

Expert

UKAPS Team Joined 7 Apr 2008 Messages 19,512 Location nr Bath Hi all,

Lee77 said: EI dosing leaving out the potassium nitrate as its high from my tap water. Click to expand...

I agree with @ian_m, I'd add it back in. It probably <"isn't going to hurt"> and if you have a <"macro-nutrient (N: P: K) deficiency">, it will severely limit plant growth. You can get accurate nitrate values from your water supplier, they are likely to be much more accurate than the values you get at home. Have a look a through <"Getting back into the hobby">. You may have high potassium (K) and nitrate (NO3) levels if the source is from arable agriculture, but your water company report probably won't have a figure for potassium, and its level may be quite low if the nitrate source is from treated domestic sewage. Plants need about about ten times more potassium and nitrogen (N) than phosphorus (P), and about three times more phosphorus than any of the other nutrients needed for plant growth.

ian_m said: The yellowing of leaves can be symptomatic of poor nitrate levels and/or iron........Could also be low magnesium,... Click to expand...

Nitrogen, potassium, magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe) are all deficiencies that cause yellow leaves (chlorosis), have a look at <"Slightly sad ....>". cheers Darrel What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster 1501 on the front left

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Can't see the 901 against the black background but it's on the rear right My power head is in the same position as yours to push water down the front.

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Just done a large water change sorted plants out reduced lighting time and mixed my macro with potassium nitrate which I am now dosing to the instructions. The flow around the tank looks good to me don't think I can do anything else. Just have to wait and see.

ceg4048

Expert/Moderator

UKAPS Team Joined 11 Jul 2007 Messages 9,599 Location Almaty, Kazakhstan

Lee77 said: Can't see the 901 against the black background but it's on the rear right My power head is in the same position as yours to push water down the front. Click to expand...

Generally not a good idea. May work - every tank is a different puzzle - but all filter outlets should be on the same side pointing horizontally in the same direction. Cheers,

Lee77

Member

Thread starter Joined 19 Sep 2017 Messages 30 Location Doncaster Thanks ceg I'll try and re route pipe work it's just alittle difficult on the Juwel Rio 180 the cut outs at the rear are quite small plus it's not rimless. The only way I could do it is to have 2 outlets one side pointing horizontally as you said and 2 inlets at the other side. Many thanks Lee.

Something Fishy

Member

Joined 27 Apr 2016 Messages 356 Location Devon How you getting on mate? Noticed looks pretty similar problem to my tank with black edging on leaves etc. Assumed it was nano size not helping water column stability with nutrients during changes too but unsure. Ive turned my light low now, high tank flow, like green drop checkers, macro micro too from the same place as you, and actually Jayefc on here also got his ferts from there too with a similar problem. Maybe the EI fert mixes are lacking in something for us all? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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