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    pronunciation 'vice versa'?

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    Topicpronunciation 'vice versa'?
    Comment

    Hello all, I am having to do a presentation in English this afternoon and would like to know how 'vice versa' is correctly pronounced - as I don't want to make a complete ass of myself. Is it vice as in Miami, or is it vice as in the German word 'weisse'?

    Thanks everyone,

    AuthorGerman Girl24 Apr 06, 13:36
    CommentI think you can say both :) be consistent, whichever way you decide
    #1AuthorAlex24 Apr 06, 13:44
    Comment???? what's the difference in pronouncing "vice" and the German "weiß"????
    #2Authorbienchen (de)24 Apr 06, 13:52
    CommentI've only ever heard it said as in "Miami Vice". Versa to rhyme with cursor.
    #3AuthorArchfarchnad -gb-24 Apr 06, 14:01
    CommentI side with Archfarchnad. However if you don't feel sure you can still pronounce it "the other way around" :-)
    #4Authorcoldby24 Apr 06, 14:11
    Commentso in english would be korrekt "weiss wörsa", but since this is latin, it should be pronounced "wike wersa" (as I have learned... years ago).So here my question: are all latin edxpressions in englisch pronounced as if it were english words ( so that I would be a total geek pronouncing it correect in latin)?I know, also in gemany, some people say "Witze Wersa"... so, all is possible and nothing at all.
    #5AuthorKimi24 Apr 06, 14:13
    Comment@bienchen:"what's the difference in pronouncing "vice" and the German "weiß"????"Nicht "weiß", sondern "weiße" war gefragt. ;-)
    #6AuthorJalapeno24 Apr 06, 14:13
    CommentJetz versteh ich gar nichts mehr. Warum sollte denn das "e" gesprochen werden. Also wenn überhaupt, dann wie ein "i", so wie in "Nike".
    #7Authorloulou24 Apr 06, 14:16
    CommentI have always pronounced the "vice" of "vice versa" with two syllables. I don't know why I pronounce the final "e", especially as I don't say "Nikeee" like some do.
    #8AuthorBart&24 Apr 06, 14:30
    CommentHab grad mal im Pons nachgeschaut und die Lautschrift dort sagt, es ist "vaisi" also doch so wie "naiki" ;-). Also auf keinen Fall wie ein "e", wenn dann wie ein "i". Muss zugeben, ich hab bis jetz aber immer nur "vais" gehört (einsilbig).
    #9Authorloulou24 Apr 06, 14:35
    CommentAch so!Danke, Jalapeno. Ich dachte da wäre jemand unsicher in der richtigen Aussprache des "v". Da wird ja manchmal die Aussprache des englischen "w" verwendet.
    #10Authorbienchen (de)24 Apr 06, 14:35
    Commentweiße wörse ist richtig!!
    #11AuthorEva24 Apr 06, 15:09
    CommentIch kann es nicht beweisen, möchte aber doch behaupten, dass "vice" in AE vorwiegend einsilbig gesprochen wird. Es reimt sich also auf "mice" (Mäuse) oder eben "vice" (das Laster).Archfarchnad's Vorschlag, dass sich "versa" auf "cursor" reimen könnte, käme mir nicht in den Sinn, jedenfalls nicht, so lange man noch ein finales /r/ herausbekommt, also überall außer in Neuengland und im Kreise der "Royals". ;-)Der zweite Vokal von "versa" ist eben das, was AE-Sprecher aus einem finalen Schwa machen, nämlich einen neuralen Vokal mit etwas weiterer Kieferöffnung. Es reimt sich sich mit der Aussprache des Wortes "Börse" durch einen AE-Sprecher.
    #12AuthorAndreasS24 Apr 06, 19:27
    CommentAll my comments refer to BE only, of course - I wouldn't dare venture into the jungle of AE :-)I wonder if these phonetic symbols work at all:'kə:sə'və:səMy Oxford Dictionary of English shows the pronunciation of "vice versa" with "vice" with one syllable only and "versa" to rhyme with cursor, i.e. no R at the end.Merriam-Webster shows that in AE you can pronounce "vice versa" either as vice or as vicey: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vice versaPronunciation: "vI-si-'v&r-s&, 'vIs-'v&r-So I guess Pons uses AE (see above).The Oxford Dictionary of English also has the word "vice" as in "as a substitute for" pronounced as in Ponce - "vicey", with the example "the letter was drafted by David Hunt, vice Bevin who was ill".
    #13AuthorArchfarchnad -gb-24 Apr 06, 19:54
    CommentI agree with archfarchnad. "Vice" (as in Miami) and "versa" as in "verse" + "a", which does indeed rhyme with cursor, not only in Buckingham Palace ;-)).However, this question brings to mind a story my father told from his schooldays, whereby the children from the state school were taught a different pronunciation of Latin compared to that taught at the Catholic school. For instance the Protestant Latin teachers taught that "v" was pronounced like English "w" and "c" like English "k" , whereas the Catholics pronounced them "v" and "s" or "ch", respectively (the latter as in Italian). Upon being confronted and teased about this once by a group of boys from the state school, my father and his friends shouted back at the Protestant boys "wicky werka!" (for "vice versa"), at which the aggressors immediately turned and fled in fear!
    #14AuthorMary (nz/A)24 Apr 06, 20:13
    CommentSo the consensus is that in modern English at least, it's /weiß wörße/ in both BE and AE.German speakers should note that both /s/ sounds are unvoiced, so it's not an exact rhyme with Börse (except in southern regions where /z/ does not exist).BE speakers should be aware that, as AndreasS explained, it does not rhyme with 'cursor' in any variety of English in which final R is pronounced (rhotic R). That includes not only the vast majority of AE but also many BE regions outside southeast England (Scotland and Ireland, for example). So it would be better not to say flatly that it rhymes.I don't recall ever having heard anyone actually say /weißi/, and I would find it bizarre, though I have heard /weiße/ and it doesn't bother me, possibly because at normal speed the difference is not that perceptible. I believe the two-syllable version is still listed in some dictionaries because it used to be BE RP, back in the days of old-fashioned ultra-anglicized public-school classical Latin, with long Latin vowels pronounced as if they were long English vowels, e.g., Lat. 'pater' and 'mater' to rhyme with Eng. 'later' and 'waiter.' Remnants of this pronunciation survive in both BE and AE, especially in legal terms, such as 'habeas corpus' (long A as in Eng. 'hay') or 'prima facie' (long I and A as in Eng. 'prime' and 'face').AFAIK, though, it's modern classical Latin that has C as /k/ and V as /u/: /uike uerßa/. Nowadays among English speakers, that pronunciation, the one Mary knew as Protestant, is used in most Latin classes, in contrast to Italianate aka church Latin, which is used in singing by both Protestants and Catholics: /wietscheh werrßa/. But no one would ever use either of those for a Latin phrase adopted into English -- so, yes, Kimi, you would be a total geek if you did. (-;A couple of links for anyone interested in Latin as pronounced in English:http://d.a.nicolas.free.fr/ucla/ling10/page31.htmlhttp://p211.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm20....(plus other links in that thread)See also this parallel thread on Latin phrases in English:  related discussion:Latin phrases in EnglishAnd finally, a note for German Girl: it's proNUNciation. Everyone who missed it, your homework is to write that and say it aloud five times. (-;
    #15Authorhm -- us25 Apr 06, 01:34
    CommentOops, a postscript (that's the word we use if we don't say P.S.):For BE, Fowler gives only /weiße wörße/ (Mod. Engl. Usage, 3rd ed., 1996, p. 825); for AE, NOAD gives either /weiß/ or /weiße/.
    #16Authorhm -- us25 Apr 06, 01:44
    CommentWell, I never knew that I spoke BE RP (I grew up in NYC), but I have always pronounced the "vice" with two syllables, very much like "weiße". I thought everyone did. I'm going to have to listen more closely to what other people say now. hm--us must be right; the difference is so small, that in normal speech we don't notice whether someone says "weiß" or "weiße".By the way, my dictionary shows six (!) pronounciations for "vice versa". (None of them is "wicky wersa".) The first five have the two-syllable "vice"; the sixth, one syllable.
    #17AuthorMartin --cal25 Apr 06, 05:04
    CommentKimis witziges "Witze Wersa" ist spätantike Aussprache des C. Im Lateiunterricht an deutschen Schulen wird je nach Prägung des Paukers mal spätantikes C=Zeh mal antikes C=K gelehrt.Wie es lief zeigt bestens die Wortkette: Caesar -> Kaiser -> Zar.Richtige lateinische Aussprache kann doch wohl weder in deutschem noch in Englischem Umfeld falsch sein. Und bei Amerikanischem Auditorium wuerde ich es nicht "verenglischen, schon damit die Hörer eine Ahnung davon bekommen, wo der Nabel der Welt ist: nämlich eher überall, als in den USA.http://www.weikopf.de/Sprache/Romanisch/Aussp...Der lateinische Konsonant C wurde klassisch immer wie "K" ausgesprochen.Der Satz Cäsar und Cicero gingen ins Konzil,Cäsar im Zylinderhut, Cicero in zivil.würde in klassischer Aussprache daher lauten: Kaesar und Kikero gingen ins Konkil,Kaesar im Kylinderhut, Kikero in kivil.Erst in der Spätantike wurde das C vor E (auch AE, OE) oder I (auch Y) zu einem Reibelaut verändert ("Z"), der in den romanischen Sprachen weiterentwickelt wurde (klass. CENTUM [kentum] = 100; spätantik CENTUM [zentum]; frz. cent [ß-]; it. cento [tsch-]; sp. ciento [ßh-]).
    #18AuthorPachulke25 Apr 06, 08:46
    CommentThanks everyone!For those of you who are (even remotely) interested, my presentation went remarkably well, and I did use 'vice versa' a couple of times. I think I pronounced it right, as no-one there seemed to flinch or batted an eyelid. Thank you again,
    #19AuthorGerman Girl25 Apr 06, 12:48
    CommentKonzil, Zylinderhut, Zivil (Substantiv groß!) sind keine lateinischen Wörter. Warum sollte man sie lateinisch aussprechen?
    #20Authorkwiedamm25 Apr 06, 14:19
    Comment@kwiedammAber "consilium", "cylindrus" und "civilis" sind lateinische Wörter, wenn man echt pedantisch sein will. Andernfalls kann man ohne große Mühe zulassen, dass das Wissen der Jahrhunderte in einer kleinen Menge Humor verdünnt wird...
    #21Authorcoldby25 Apr 06, 15:05
    Commentkwiedamm Zivil gross?Da kennt der Duden keinen Humor (zusammenschreiben klein!):8. in|zi|vil <aus gleichbed. lat. incivilis (eigtl. "unbürgerlich") zu → in... (2) u. civilis "bürgerlich", vgl. →zivil>: ...
    #22AuthorPachulke25 Apr 06, 16:02
    Comment@Martin: So are you saying that there are AE speakers who can pronounce a final schwa without special training, which often fails anyway, and you are one of them?When I was over there I almost killed myself teaching a fellow student who worked for the PBS station to announce "Eine kleine Nachtmusik".
    #23AuthorAndreasS25 Apr 06, 17:12
    Commentpachulke,zusammen? klein?das ist doch eher kurz für in zivilkleidung, wie engl civvies
    #24Authorpeter h. s.25 Apr 06, 17:21
    Commenthttp://web.mit.edu/~flemming/www/paper/reduce...I've just found this and I'm posting it here so that it doesn't get lost. Very interesing reading anyway.
    #25AuthorAndreasS25 Apr 06, 17:22
    CommentThanks Andreas, very interesting read indeed. I knew I couldn't trust dictionaries on their transcription of unstressed syllables.> This distinction [between the two vowels in unstressed, non-final position] is > not made in the American accents that we are familiar with, so Lenin and Lennon> are homophonous, for example.So does that mean that 'allusion' and 'illusion' are also homophonous?
    #26AuthorThomasJ25 Apr 06, 19:04
    CommentCheck merriam-webster.com for a sound sample. There are 2 possibilities given. A 3rd one would be to pronounce the e of vice as in Nike, ee(engl.) or i(german). Brgds, Chris
    #27AuthorChris16 Apr 08, 16:59
    Comment... und umgekehrt ...
    #28Authorritschvideo (1200447) 24 Apr 19, 01:51
    Comment

    vice versa = [ˈvaɪsˈvɜːsə]

    (sagt Collins)

    #29AuthorMiMo (236780) 24 Apr 19, 04:11
    Comment

    That includes not only the vast majority of AE but also many BE regions outside southeast England (Scotland and Ireland, for example). (#15)

    Did you mean "outside England"? The sentence above almost makes it sound as if Scotland and Ireland are parts of England.

    #30AuthorGibson (418762) 24 Apr 19, 05:09
    Comment

    Since it's been revived:

    Re #13: Merriam-Webster shows that in AE you can pronounce "vice versa" either as vice or as vicey: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vice versa

    Pronunciation: "vI-si-'v&r-s&, 'vIs-'v&r-

    It appears that Archfarchnad -gb- hadn't read M-W's pronunciation guide (nor is that reproduction of the pronunciation correct--although it's quite possible that M-W has updated their site since 2006). The current version is ˌvī-si-ˈvər-sə or ˈvīs-ˈvər- "Vicey" is an incorrect rendering of the first version. In the M-W system, which is not IPA-based, "ī" would is pronounced as the "i" in "vice" or "ice" and "i" is akin as the "i" in "it."

    (As is typically taught in English classes in the US, those vowels are called a "long I" and a "short I," respectively. That usage has caused some confusion here in other threads, where German speakers (and perhaps others) consider the use of "long" an d "short" vowels to be something else, akin to the IPA's usage.)

    #31Authorhbberlin (420040)  24 Apr 19, 10:02
    Comment

    FWIW, hier nochmals die Aussprache-Angaben der großen Online-WB u. Lexika im Vgl.:

    vī-si-ˈvər-sə 🔊 ˈvīs-ˈvər-sə 🔊 (MW)

    vʌɪsə ˈvəːsə ˌvʌɪs ˈvəːsə 🔊 (Oxford BE)

    ˌvīs(ə) ˈvərsə ˌvaɪs(ə) ˈvərsə 🔊 (Oxford AE)

    vī′sə vûr'sə, vīs′ vûr'sə 🔊 (AHD)

    vaɪsə veːʳsə 🔊 (Collins)

    ˌvaɪsi ˈvɜː(r)sə 🔊 ˌvaɪs ˈvɜː(r)sə 🔊 (Macmillan BE)

    vaɪs ˈvɜrsə 🔊  ˌvaɪsi ˈvɜrsə 🔊 (Macmillan AE)

    vī'su vûr'su, vīs', vī'sē (Random House)

    (UK) IPA (key): /ˈvaɪsɪ ˈvɜːsə/, /ˈvaɪsə ˈvɜːsə/, /vaɪs ˈvɜːsə/    

    (US) enPR: vīʹsē vûrʹsə, vīʹsə vûrʹsə, vīs vûrʹsə, IPA (key) /ˈvaɪsi ˈvɝsə/, /ˈvaɪsə ˈvɝsə/, /vaɪs ˈvɝsə/     

    Some speakers regard the pronunciations where "vice" has one syllable as less correct than the others, whereas other speakers regard the pronunciations with two syllables as less correct.

    (Wiktionary)

    Historically and in British English, "vice" is pronounced as two syllables, but in American English the singular syllable pronunciation is almost universal. Classical Latin pronunciation dictates that the letter "c" is only a hard sound, like "k", thus vee-keh vehr-sah. Moreover, it also dictates that the letter "v", when consonantal, represents /w/; i. e. in classical times, the "v" was pronounced like the modern "w"; hence wee-keh wehr-sah

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_p...

    #32Authorlingua franca (48253)  24 Apr 19, 12:40
    Comment

    I pronounce 'vice versa' as if the words were English, and 'sine die' as if they were Latin. Don't ask me why. But I remember being flummoxed once when a trade union leader pronounced the latter as if it were English. Maybe he was right: the law courts tend to use English pronunciations. There are lots of examples (nisi, bona fide, prima facie, regina).

    #33Authorescoville (237761) 24 Apr 19, 13:13
     
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Từ khóa » Vice Versa Pronunciation In British English