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The IL-2 Forums Have Moved - Information Within Ta-152 Collector Plane

By [TWB]Sauerkraut- November 2, 2018 in Suggestions

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[TWB]Sauerkraut-

Posted November 2, 2018

[TWB]Sauerkraut-

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Posted November 2, 2018 (edited)

An aircraft I would absolutely love to fly. Very heavy armament, and very fast at high altitudes. Pressurized cockpit. MW50 AND Nitrous Oxide boost.

 

During a short read over the Wiki page, I found this gem:

 

Kurt Tank was flying an unarmed Ta 152H in late 1944 to a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus when ground controllers warned him of two P-51 Mustangs. The enemy aircraft appeared behind Tank, but he escaped by applying full power and engaging the MW 50 boost "until they were no more than two dots on the horizon".

 

However, it would be a pretty serious undertaking for the devs, as I imagine there isn't a spectacular amount of documentation available for an aircraft with such a limited production run introduced that late in the war.

Edited November 2, 2018 by itsthatguy

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RobCarter3

Posted November 2, 2018

RobCarter3

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Posted November 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

However, it would be a pretty serious undertaking for the devs, as I imagine there isn't a spectacular amount of documentation available for an aircraft with such a limited production run introduced that late in the war.

 

I think you've already basically summed it up. It's a cool airplane, and I appreciate the desire for the pinnacle of the Fw-190 series, but, personally, there are a lot of more important/representative types that I'd prefer to see for BoBp collector planes before we get into the really rare stuff -- typhoon, mosquito, spit XIV, Me 410, Ar 234, Ju 188, etc.

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Voidhunger

Posted November 2, 2018

Voidhunger

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Posted November 2, 2018

11 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

Kurt Tank was flying an unarmed Ta 152H in late 1944 to a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus when ground controllers warned him of two P-51 Mustangs. The enemy aircraft appeared behind Tank, but he escaped by applying full power and engaging the MW 50 boost "until they were no more than two dots on the horizon".

 

this probably never happened. Anyway I would like to have Ta 152H. Its a beautiful and interesting plane, one of my favorite!

I hope for another late war scenario with this plane before we jump into pacific

CountZero

Posted November 2, 2018

CountZero

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Posted November 2, 2018

yes, its better then ones we get in bobp so its perfect for collectable option for me, if its not planed to be in some other future late 45 dlc battle of ...

 

 

for axis collectable fighter thats first one on list for me also, infront 109g10 or 190a9s

sevenless

Posted November 2, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 2, 2018

Not very likely to happen, because it never flew on the western front. If we get a 1945 eastfront scenario including the "vistula-oder" operation it might happen. Who knows?

catchthefoxes

Posted November 2, 2018

catchthefoxes

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Posted November 2, 2018

I’d prefer the TA 152 over the XIV

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WheelwrightPL

Posted November 2, 2018

WheelwrightPL

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Posted November 2, 2018

That's a pass: too similar to Dora.

Y-29.Silky

Posted November 2, 2018

Y-29.Silky

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Posted November 2, 2018

8 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Not very likely to happen, because it never flew on the western front. If we get a 1945 eastfront scenario including the "vistula-oder" operation it might happen. Who knows?

 

Straight out of Wiki:   

On the evening of that same day, Reschke was to demonstrate that the Ta 152H could be used as a low altitude fighter. A section of four Hawker Tempest Vs of 486 (NZ) Squadron were out on patrol. After attacking a train near Ludwigslust, the section split up into pairs; Wing Commander Brooker ordered the Tempests flown by Flying Officer S. J. Short and Warrant Officer Owen J. Mitchell to make their own way back to base. On the way back, this pair, which was strafing targets along the railway tracks near Ludwigslust, was spotted by lookouts posted at Neustadt-Glewe. Three Ta 152s—flown by Reschke, Oberstleutnant Aufhammer and Oberfeldwebel Sepp Sattler—were scrambled, catching the Tempests by surprise. Reschke recalled:

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Sattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

Bremspropeller

Posted November 2, 2018

Bremspropeller

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Posted November 2, 2018

4 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

That's a pass: too similar to Dora.

 

Yeah, better get another 109 instead :P

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sevenless

Posted November 2, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 2, 2018

5 minutes ago, Y-29.Silky said:

 

Straight out of Wiki:   

On the evening of that same day, Reschke was to demonstrate that the Ta 152H could be used as a low altitude fighter. A section of four Hawker Tempest Vs of 486 (NZ) Squadron were out on patrol. After attacking a train near Ludwigslust, the section split up into pairs; Wing Commander Brooker ordered the Tempests flown by Flying Officer S. J. Short and Warrant Officer Owen J. Mitchell to make their own way back to base. On the way back, this pair, which was strafing targets along the railway tracks near Ludwigslust, was spotted by lookouts posted at Neustadt-Glewe. Three Ta 152s—flown by Reschke, Oberstleutnant Aufhammer and Oberfeldwebel Sepp Sattler—were scrambled, catching the Tempests by surprise. Reschke recalled:

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Sattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

 

I know Reschkes book. You happen to know where Ludwigslust is? South of Schwerin, near Parchim, way out of bounds of the BoBP map. I show you:

 

https://www.google.de/maps/place/19288+Ludwigslust/@53.1952244,11.0936167,7.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47ae631de62e5291:0x251fd35219441d62!8m2!3d53.3244914!4d11.4969238

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Yeah, better get another 109 instead

 

We still miss the G10 and the G14/AS ?

Livai

Posted November 2, 2018

Livai

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Posted November 2, 2018

Is the Ta-152 tail not enough? - ?

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Asgar

Posted November 2, 2018

Asgar

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Posted November 2, 2018

152 is cool but... BUT Me 410. 'nuff said

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Bremspropeller

Posted November 2, 2018

Bremspropeller

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Posted November 2, 2018

6 minutes ago, sevenless said:

I know Reschkes book. You happen to know where Ludwigslust is? South of Schwerin, near Parchim, way out of bounds of the BoBP map. I show you:

 

You're both correct. He's more hinting at the fact that McVopo was 2nd TAF hunting grounds and more of a "Western Front" kind of thing.

But then again, fronts were academic - german controlled terrain was about as large as two towels (pun very much intended, dear Tommies) lined next to each other.

 

8 minutes ago, sevenless said:

We still miss the G10 and the G14/AS ?

 

Narrrr, kill it with fire! :P

1 minute ago, Asgar said:

152 is cool but... BUT Me 410. 'nuff said

 

*Ozzy Osbourse voice*

"You're all 'uckin mad!

 

:D

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Matt

Posted November 2, 2018

Matt

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Posted November 2, 2018

Ta-152 would be nice to have after they added the Me 410, Fw 189, He 177 and Ar 234.

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sevenless

Posted November 2, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

You're both correct. He's more hinting at the fact that McVopo was 2nd TAF hunting grounds and more of a "Western Front" kind of thing.

But then again, fronts were academic - german controlled terrain was about as large as two towels (pun very much intended, dear Tommies) lined next to each other.

 

 

That incident happened on 14th April 1945. At that time there were no "fronts" in Germany anymore.

 

 

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Bremspropeller

Posted November 2, 2018

Bremspropeller

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Posted November 2, 2018

That's exactly what I wrote.

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JG4_dingsda

Posted November 2, 2018

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Posted November 2, 2018

27 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ta-152 would be nice to have after they added the Me 410, Fw 189, He 177 and Ar 234.

Since I can upvote this only once: Another upvote by reply. :)

Asgar

Posted November 2, 2018

Asgar

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Posted November 2, 2018

38 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ta-152 would be nice to have after they added the Me 410, Fw 189, He 177 and Ar 234.

I take all 4!

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L3Pl4K

Posted November 2, 2018

L3Pl4K

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Posted November 2, 2018

40 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ta-152 would be nice to have after they added the Me 410, Fw 189, He 177 and Ar 234.

gekauft?

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RoteDreizehn

Posted November 2, 2018

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Posted November 2, 2018

42 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ta-152 would be nice to have after they added the Me 410, Fw 189, He 177 and Ar 234.

 

same for me. Interessing Aircraft's, will buy that

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blockheadgreen_

Posted November 2, 2018

blockheadgreen_

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Posted November 2, 2018

Would be cool, but not til we see Spitfire XIV, Ar 234, Mosquito, B-26, Typhoon, Me 410.

Finkeren

Posted November 2, 2018

Finkeren

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Posted November 2, 2018

No thanks. As few unicorns as possible.

 

Less than 70 Ta 152 produced, not all of which saw action, only fully equipped a single Stabstaffel, fewer than 20 operational at its peak, a grand total of 7 victories scored and 4 combat losses.

 

Hardly worth the effort to model what is essentially a completely new airframe that is to my knowledge not very well documented.

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LukeFF

Posted November 2, 2018

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Posted November 2, 2018

3 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

that is to my knowledge not very well documented.

 

And on that point you're entirely wrong. 

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Finkeren

Posted November 2, 2018

Finkeren

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Posted November 2, 2018

Just now, LukeFF said:

 

And on that point you're entirely wrong. 

 

Fair enough.

 

Doesn’t change my opinion on modeling it for the sim: It’s a bad idea.

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Ehret

Posted November 2, 2018

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Posted November 2, 2018

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

Not very likely to happen, because it never flew on the western front. If we get a 1945 eastfront scenario including the "vistula-oder" operation it might happen. Who knows?

 

If so the allies should get P-63/C, too. Would fit the speculative nature of those engagements perfectly.

Luftschiff

Posted November 2, 2018

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Posted November 2, 2018

If we're making wishlists for unicorns gimme the He 219. Hoot hoot!

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Finkeren

Posted November 2, 2018

Finkeren

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Posted November 2, 2018

4 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

If we're making wishlists for unicorns gimme the He 219. Hoot hoot!

 

Would be such a cool plane - for a different sim. Here it would just be a target drone.

sevenless

Posted November 2, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 2, 2018

10 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

If so the allies should get P-63/C, too. Would fit the speculative nature of those engagements perfectly.

 

If we are talking unicorns, I´d rather would have the P-80 we got back then with SWOTL. Would give the allied forces some jet power. Oh and did I mention the Meteor? That one saw operational duty on the continent from 2/45 to 4/45.

303_Kwiatek

Posted November 2, 2018

303_Kwiatek

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Posted November 2, 2018

Ta152 H was a beast. Definitly for it

Ehret

Posted November 2, 2018

Ehret

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Posted November 2, 2018

32 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

If we are talking unicorns, I´d rather would have the P-80 we got back then with SWOTL. Would give the allied forces some jet power. Oh and did I mention the Meteor? That one saw operational duty on the continent from 2/45 to 4/45.

 

The Kingcobra wasn't an unicorn... just Soviets weren't "allowed" officially to use them in the east. Perhaps, they really had not or were very secretive about that. I don't know but the P-63s existed in numbers.

II/JG17_HerrMurf

Posted November 2, 2018

II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted November 2, 2018

Tank outrunning Mustangs is pretty widely debated now. There’s no record of Mustangs in the area from the allies side on this date. And I’d rather have the less well known C-0 if we’re gonna do it. H series likely never saw combat either. So, it’s a Unicorn toss-up no matter how you cut it.

SCRYABIN

Posted November 2, 2018

SCRYABIN

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Posted November 2, 2018 (edited)

Well, even if this plane is, as many said it before, not so documented, has been very little produced (ta 152 h : 6 prototypes, 43 series model  of which only one exemplary remains  source : wiki ) engaged mainly in berlin battle, it holds for me as an ingenior art work, it as this sharped lines, thin wings, awesome and at this time dominant speed performance at high altitude  ( 760 km/h at 12 500 m) , 30 cal in the hub of the propeller, it has a marvelous design and would be why a reason to model it. 

 

 it belongs to the most purified and perfected aircraft of the end of the word war 2. hopefully the history did not show how good it was, but the sim can  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by vladim

JV69badatflyski

Posted November 2, 2018

JV69badatflyski

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Posted November 2, 2018 (edited)

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

If we are talking unicorns, I´d rather would have the P-80 we got back then with SWOTL. Would give the allied forces some jet power. Oh and did I mention the Meteor? That one saw operational duty on the continent from 2/45 to 4/45.

ooh yes please, especially the meteor being modeled just like it's described in this 1946 RAE report....http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/meteor/Meteor-CFE.pdf

Really want to see some faces when trying their first high speed turn (= Me-262 cruise speed ?) .... but if no ta-152, an A-9 would be also nice (and easier to do) otherwise ar-234 all the way.

Edited November 2, 2018 by JV69badatflyski .

sevenless

Posted November 3, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 3, 2018

1 hour ago, vladim said:

 

 it belongs to the most purified and perfected aircraft of the end of the word war 2. hopefully the history did not show how good it was, but the sim can  

 

 

Agreed. It is one of the most perfected propellor aircraft of WW2 and certainly would deserve to be modelled. It is up to the devs to find a place where it may make sense. My bet would be on a late war east front release. We will see what the future brings.

 

 

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SCRYABIN

Posted November 3, 2018

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Posted November 3, 2018 (edited)

a dlc proposing a detailed  tale (as far as possible) of the lasts historics flights of the luftwaffe in time of war and maybe weeks later for historical purpose), the last great battles, also the smallest, could be very interesting by proposing an enriched campaign in anecdote and a historical background of the introduction and putting into service ( and hope that it could spark for pilots) of his last prototypes), and therefore aborted creations 

 

also  the crazy story of  transfered engineers, that by the can leed to a final dlc for that opus that, (i hope)

will expose the jets under development that were not deployed in wartime 

nice pic by the way !

also : https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/focke-wulf-ta-152-h-0r11

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by vladim

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sevenless

Posted November 3, 2018

sevenless

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Posted November 3, 2018

54 minutes ago, vladim said:

a dlc proposing a detailed  tale (as far as possible) of the lasts historics flights of the luftwaffe in time of war and maybe weeks later for historical purpose), the last great battles, also the smallest, could be very interesting by proposing an enriched campaign in anecdote and a historical background of the introduction and putting into service ( and hope that it could spark for pilots) of his last prototypes), and therefore aborted creations 

 

 

That certainly would be nice. I ever since SWOTL (in 1991) liked the concept to get game additions which introduced singleplayer plane specific careers with iconic planes. Do 335, He 162, P-80, P-38. Maybe we can see something similar in this sim in the future? As for multiplayer the Ta-152 H0/H1 would be a beast, since it was designed to take up the high altitude escorts and I guess it would have performed very well against P51s or P47s, even at lower altitudes than 10.000 metres. However, that´s just my personal guess. We will never know for sure.

=EXPEND=Tripwire

Posted November 3, 2018

=EXPEND=Tripwire

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Posted November 3, 2018

Not really interested in as others say,  the 'unicorns'. Still so many other planes that were much more prominent in WW2 that I would prefer to see in game first - even as collector planes. 

 

 

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SCRYABIN

Posted November 3, 2018

SCRYABIN

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Posted November 3, 2018

48 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

That certainly would be nice. I ever since SWOTL (in 1991) liked the concept to get game additions which introduced singleplayer plane specific careers with iconic planes. Do 335, He 162, P-80, P-38. Maybe we can see something similar in this sim in the future? As for multiplayer the Ta-152 H0/H1 would be a beast, since it was designed to take up the high altitude escorts and I guess it would have performed very well against P51s or P47s, even at lower altitudes than 10.000 metres. However, that´s just my personal guess. We will never know for sure.

aha i wasn't born when this came out, i just saw a gameplay and for 1991 THAT must be a diamond of aircraft video games, here is the link ( the first comment by william burns is gold ) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eosVhMLr1A

and yhea, with the "methanol-wasser 50" usable for 10 min it would be a beast

BMA_FlyingShark

Posted November 3, 2018

BMA_FlyingShark

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Posted November 3, 2018

10 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Tank outrunning Mustangs is pretty widely debated now. There’s no record of Mustangs in the area from the allies side on this date. And I’d rather have the less well known C-0 if we’re gonna do it. H series likely never saw combat either. So, it’s a Unicorn toss-up no matter how you cut it.

Sorry for maybe a stupid question but...what do you guys mean by "unicorn"?

 

Have a nice day.

 

Bremspropeller

Posted November 3, 2018

Bremspropeller

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Posted November 3, 2018 (edited)

An airplane that is highly popular by some people for it's performance (or it's predicted performance), but did little to nothing in the war for several reasons.

 

In fact, the 152H is a two-fold unicorn. Not only was it barely produced, it also was just a specialized high-altitude sub-version of the Ta 152. The plain-jane 152 would have been the 152C with a DB603E/LA/L engine. That airplane would have had a firepower bordering on the perverse (4x20mm, 1x30mm as a standard loadout), range (additional fuel cells in the wings and an enlarged rear fuselage tank) and overall performance. It also had the R11 blind-flying Rüstsatz as standard option.

The 152C was to beproduced in high quantities, but the war ended before that could be set up. It was supposed to replace a whole deal of german designs: From the Schnellbombr Ju 88S to the Zerstörer types to the Sturmbock types to the "plain vanilla" Fw 190A. The Dora was somewhat of a gap-filler, but especially the Jumo 213F/EB equipped Doras could replace the Bf 109 at all altitudes.

 

In fact, only the Ta 152 and the "fast Doras" (D-12 and D-13 on Jumo 213F and EB engines and D-14 and D-15s which were the same airframe but with DB603E/LA engines*) were the only propeller-driven airplanes to be produced after April or May 1945. Messerschmitt was supposed to halt all 109-production and concentrate on the 262 and other jet-projects.

 

___

* The D-14 and D-15 were in fact cancelled early on, but it was generally possible to attach a DB603 to a Jumo fuselage - the Jumo 213 was designed to fit the DB603 interfaces. The only issue would have been the cowling. D-14 and D-15 prototypes were flown, so the cowling-design existed. Mind the the Jumo has the supercharger-inlet on the RH side of the fuselage, while the DB does have it on the LH side. That's one of the details. I don't know if the DB603L with it's intercooler would have fit into the Dora cowling. The intercooler was the reason why the Jumo 213E took so long to integrate and the 213F without the intercooler was gone after at first in the D-11,12 and 13. The 213EB had improved cooler-performance which in turn allowed for the cowl-flaps to be shut to an aerodynamically flush position and that provided some additional attainable airspeed (around 20kph at altitude IIRC).

Edited November 3, 2018 by Bremspropeller

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