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• Thread starter Sailer1701
• Start date Dec 8, 2014
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Sailer1701

New member

14 0 Ontario Canada I found this web sight http://www.northsailsdirect.com/Default.aspx Has anyone order from them? I found they are a lot cheeper for sails then any other sailmaker that I can find. Are the sails they make as good as sails from North Sail. Are there any other things I should be concerned about when ordering from them. J

jsaronson

Member

368 26 Annapolis, Maryland, United States They are made in Sri Lanka from the cheapest dacron that North sells. They don't measure your boat. I'd take Rolly Tasker if I were doing mail order. I'm very happy with the gennie they built. A

Alex W

Super Anarchist

3,645 609 Seattle, WA I have one of their gennakers, it's good for a cruising asym, but it is made with the cheapest nylon spinnaker fabric. The sock works great. I'm seeing prices there that are within a couple hundred dollars of what I paid for a sail from my local loft. I can't see much reason to be excited about buying from them instead of having someone measure my boat and building to that spec. With NSD I don't get to select my fabric, what the UV cover is made of, or anything else. U

usa100

New member

9 0

Sailer1701 said: I found this web sight http://www.northsailsdirect.com/Default.aspx Has anyone order from them? I found they are a lot cheeper for sails then any other sailmaker that I can find. Are the sails they make as good as sails from North Sail. Are there any other things I should be concerned about when ordering from them. Click to expand...

Hi 1701, I would be happy to give you a personalized estimate for new sails. Feel free to contact me via PM or on our website through Web Chat or our Sail Quote page. Happy Holidays! Bill Dieball Sailing

jwaldron

Anarchist

975 25 East Coast US, Caribbean

usa100 said:

Sailer1701 said: I found this web sight http://www.northsailsdirect.com/Default.aspx Has anyone order from them? I found they are a lot cheeper for sails then any other sailmaker that I can find. Are the sails they make as good as sails from North Sail. Are there any other things I should be concerned about when ordering from them. Click to expand...

Hi 1701, I would be happy to give you a personalized estimate for new sails. Feel free to contact me via PM or on our website through Web Chat or our Sail Quote page. Happy Holidays! Bill Dieball Sailing Click to expand...

Wait! No tits? Wait! No Ad? Wait, wait! No TITS??? Most sailmakers will provide a personalized estimate for new sails these days. Most of 'em by e-mail, by phone, via PM or on their website, through Web Chat or on a Sail Quote page. Some of 'em support SA by advertising here. Since you're new guys, a limited exposure would be the idea to start with. But don't spam the forums. Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2014

George Hackett

Super Anarchist

2,462 136 Subic Bay, Philippines on another thread i posted this. CAVEAT EMPTOR As a sail buyer you would do well to look into who makes your sails and what your sails are made of. More than a few big name Sailmakers are buying their sails from low price, high production lofts with no brand affiliation whatsoever. The Sailmakers I am referring to buy these cheap sails and slap their label on them. Other Sailmakers use the cheapest cloth, material, and labor available. Even the top cloth suppliers have a range of real cheap fabric to compete with in the world market. These are fabrics we would never use. As a result, you the consumer, end up with a cheap imitation of what you think you purchased.

bowgeezer

Member

484 0 To summarily dismiss the North Direct "brand" (formerly Cruising Direct) as universally poor quality would be inaccurate, at least in terms of what I've experienced. The sails I purchased (through my wife's generosity at Christmas several years ago) involved choosing the cloth and construction from several options and providing measurements for the sails. As it was winter and my mast was unstepped, I relied on the sales staff at North Direct (who were close by in the Portsmouth, RI loft) to measure my old sails and reproduce it with the chosen sail cloth and cut for what I planned to do with the boat. I talked with several other local lofts and none of the sail makers offered to come to my boat and take measurements. Each of them said to bring my old sails and they'd quote from there. I compared prices and delivery times and bought from North Direct. I was buying both jib and main and was pleased when the sails arrived in about 5 weeks. Here's where the "price factor" came in. It was another month before my boat was commissioned for the season and when I bent the main on for the first time, the sail was easily 6-8" too short on the foot. As it turned out, the guys that took my order, never measured my old sail but instead relied on their chart of sail sizes, without noting that there was a dimensional difference between a MK1 and MK2 version of my boat. Now considering they asked me to bring in my sail for measurement AND they encouraged me to "recycle" my old sail into sailbags or whatever (I fortunately chose not to do so), I really put the error on the local loft/order takers for the error, not some guy who was operating the laser cutting machine in Sri Lanka. Bottom line, anyone can make a mistake. The down side was that a new sail would need to be constructed and a new North Direct Sail has to come from Sri Lanka. So, now it is mid May and I'm waiting another 5-6 weeks for the replacement sail (I had to return the mis-cut sail in order to get full credit applied to the re-order). Had I chosen to "recycle" my old main, I would have been without a sail for a good portion of the sailing season in New England. To their credit, North Direct made me two very nice and well constructed sails and since the initial foul up, I have had no problems with either the Norlam Genoa or the "Racing" Dacron Main. Both have cloth and construction similar to what I've seen from our local lofts, both independent and "brand affiliated". As frustrated as I was for the foul up on my sail, the end result was a good product that continues to serve me well. Buying strictly on finding the "cheapest" product out there will invariably result in goods that fall short of expectations. A sail is (unfortunately) a consumable product with a limited life span. Just like tire manufacturers, a particular sail "brand" may have several levels of quality and countries of origin of the goods they produce. My experience with North Direct is positive because I received a level of service after an error was discovered. Perhaps a local sail maker would not have made an error to begin with OR would have delivered a replacement in a shorter period of time than North Direct. At the end of the day, I bought a combination of quality that was offset with the inconvenience of not having the new sails ready to go when I needed them. Would I buy again from North Direct? They would be in the equation for sure, but I would take the time to get the sail dimensions from the rig itself and double check the figures against the manufacturer's sail plan before I placed the order.

George Hackett

Super Anarchist

2,462 136 Subic Bay, Philippines

bowgeezer said: To summarily dismiss the North Direct "brand" (formerly Cruising Direct) as universally poor quality would be inaccurate, at least in terms of what I've experienced. The sails I purchased (through my wife's generosity at Christmas several years ago) involved choosing the cloth and construction from several options and providing measurements for the sails. As it was winter and my mast was unstepped, I relied on the sales staff at North Direct (who were close by in the Portsmouth, RI loft) to measure my old sails and reproduce it with the chosen sail cloth and cut for what I planned to do with the boat. I talked with several other local lofts and none of the sail makers offered to come to my boat and take measurements. Each of them said to bring my old sails and they'd quote from there. I compared prices and delivery times and bought from North Direct. I was buying both jib and main and was pleased when the sails arrived in about 5 weeks. Here's where the "price factor" came in. It was another month before my boat was commissioned for the season and when I bent the main on for the first time, the sail was easily 6-8" too short on the foot. As it turned out, the guys that took my order, never measured my old sail but instead relied on their chart of sail sizes, without noting that there was a dimensional difference between a MK1 and MK2 version of my boat. Now considering they asked me to bring in my sail for measurement AND they encouraged me to "recycle" my old sail into sailbags or whatever (I fortunately chose not to do so), I really put the error on the local loft/order takers for the error, not some guy who was operating the laser cutting machine in Sri Lanka. Bottom line, anyone can make a mistake. The down side was that a new sail would need to be constructed and a new North Direct Sail has to come from Sri Lanka. So, now it is mid May and I'm waiting another 5-6 weeks for the replacement sail (I had to return the mis-cut sail in order to get full credit applied to the re-order). Had I chosen to "recycle" my old main, I would have been without a sail for a good portion of the sailing season in New England. To their credit, North Direct made me two very nice and well constructed sails and since the initial foul up, I have had no problems with either the Norlam Genoa or the "Racing" Dacron Main. Both have cloth and construction similar to what I've seen from our local lofts, both independent and "brand affiliated". As frustrated as I was for the foul up on my sail, the end result was a good product that continues to serve me well. Buying strictly on finding the "cheapest" product out there will invariably result in goods that fall short of expectations. A sail is (unfortunately) a consumable product with a limited life span. Just like tire manufacturers, a particular sail "brand" may have several levels of quality and countries of origin of the goods they produce. My experience with North Direct is positive because I received a level of service after an error was discovered. Perhaps a local sail maker would not have made an error to begin with OR would have delivered a replacement in a shorter period of time than North Direct. At the end of the day, I bought a combination of quality that was offset with the inconvenience of not having the new sails ready to go when I needed them. Would I buy again from North Direct? They would be in the equation for sure, but I would take the time to get the sail dimensions from the rig itself and double check the figures against the manufacturer's sail plan before I placed the order. Click to expand...

well this goes to show the world we live in. convenience over quality. yes sail do have a life span. and if i dare say, Dacron could last you up to what, 15 years with proper care. and for the sake of convenience on both sides, an inferior sail was made and had to be replaced. and people are ok with this? now i do not live in the States, but people are happy with giving work overseas instead of supporting, "Made in America"? Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2014

allene222

Super Anarchist

4,014 104 SF Bay I have purchased 7 new sails. Two from North, not North Direct. Four from Quantum, and one from EP Sails. The main from North was recut because it didn't come close to fitting the boat, then it was recut again because the shape was still bad. These were right after I bought it. It still had issues but I gave up and kept it. I didn't know how bad it was until I got the new main from Quantum. The jib from North was OK, except the clew was 5 feet off the deck and I wanted a blade. I was too stupid to know how to ask for what I wanted and they assumed I didn't want to install a new track. The Quantum sails ended up better but took a while to get there. The main was recut once because it shook the mast so much I thought it would come down. The two jibs did the same thing. One was recut twice and one they lost and remade. Then it came apart on the first race and had to be repaired and a spreader patch added. The other jib just needed a new clew ring as we bent it the first use. The spinnaker from EP Sails was fine. So one out of seven and these are top end sail makers. In my mind, the important thing is how well do they stand behind their product. The salesman at Quantum was exceptional and I am tremendously happy with the sails after the recut. But he left and the other salesman is likely not as interested in a small time customer like me. It isn't like he was totally non responsive, just mostly. Just because you go to a high end loft doesn't mean they are going to treat you like their best customer. By the way, never buy a sail that overlaps your spreaders by 2 inches. Make it a little smaller and you can sheet it in another foot. That was the second recut on one of the jibs. A

Alex W

Super Anarchist

3,645 609 Seattle, WA

allen said: By the way, never buy a sail that overlaps your spreaders by 2 inches. Make it a little smaller and you can sheet it in another foot. That was the second recut on one of the jibs. Click to expand...

Doesn't it just hit the shrouds instead of the spreaders?

FinnFish

Super Anarchist

7,021 2,935

allen said: I have purchased 7 new sails. Two from North, not North Direct. Four from Quantum, and one from EP Sails. The main from North was recut because it didn't come close to fitting the boat, then it was recut again because the shape was still bad. These were right after I bought it. It still had issues but I gave up and kept it. I didn't know how bad it was until I got the new main from Quantum. The jib from North was OK, except the clew was 5 feet off the deck and I wanted a blade. I was too stupid to know how to ask for what I wanted and they assumed I didn't want to install a new track. The Quantum sails ended up better but took a while to get there. The main was recut once because it shook the mast so much I thought it would come down. The two jibs did the same thing. One was recut twice and one they lost and remade. Then it came apart on the first race and had to be repaired and a spreader patch added. The other jib just needed a new clew ring as we bent it the first use. The spinnaker from EP Sails was fine. So one out of seven and these are top end sail makers. In my mind, the important thing is how well do they stand behind their product. The salesman at Quantum was exceptional and I am tremendously happy with the sails after the recut. But he left and the other salesman is likely not as interested in a small time customer like me. It isn't like he was totally non responsive, just mostly. Just because you go to a high end loft doesn't mean they are going to treat you like their best customer. By the way, never buy a sail that overlaps your spreaders by 2 inches. Make it a little smaller and you can sheet it in another foot. That was the second recut on one of the jibs. Click to expand...

If it's anything like down under you're NOT dealing with Norths, Q, UK, Doyle etc, you're dealing with Joe sailmaker working under that brand. My experience is go with a local sailmaker with a good reputation that takes time to come down to your boat, measure up and talk to you about what you want (or think or want). He should also come back to fit the sail. Obviously not so relevant for OD stuff eg Farr 30 etc

allene222

Super Anarchist

4,014 104 SF Bay

Alex W said:

allen said: By the way, never buy a sail that overlaps your spreaders by 2 inches. Make it a little smaller and you can sheet it in another foot. That was the second recut on one of the jibs. Click to expand...

Doesn't it just hit the shrouds instead of the spreaders? Click to expand...

Yes, but it hits much lower and doesn't hook on the shrouds like hit does on the spreaders. A couple of inches of sail made a huge difference in pointing ability.

allene222

Super Anarchist

4,014 104 SF Bay

jc172528 said:

allen said: I have purchased 7 new sails. Two from North, not North Direct. Four from Quantum, and one from EP Sails. The main from North was recut because it didn't come close to fitting the boat, then it was recut again because the shape was still bad. These were right after I bought it. It still had issues but I gave up and kept it. I didn't know how bad it was until I got the new main from Quantum. The jib from North was OK, except the clew was 5 feet off the deck and I wanted a blade. I was too stupid to know how to ask for what I wanted and they assumed I didn't want to install a new track. The Quantum sails ended up better but took a while to get there. The main was recut once because it shook the mast so much I thought it would come down. The two jibs did the same thing. One was recut twice and one they lost and remade. Then it came apart on the first race and had to be repaired and a spreader patch added. The other jib just needed a new clew ring as we bent it the first use. The spinnaker from EP Sails was fine. So one out of seven and these are top end sail makers. In my mind, the important thing is how well do they stand behind their product. The salesman at Quantum was exceptional and I am tremendously happy with the sails after the recut. But he left and the other salesman is likely not as interested in a small time customer like me. It isn't like he was totally non responsive, just mostly. Just because you go to a high end loft doesn't mean they are going to treat you like their best customer. By the way, never buy a sail that overlaps your spreaders by 2 inches. Make it a little smaller and you can sheet it in another foot. That was the second recut on one of the jibs. Click to expand...

If it's anything like down under you're NOT dealing with Norths, Q, UK, Doyle etc, you're dealing with Joe sailmaker working under that brand. My experience is go with a local sailmaker with a good reputation that takes time to come down to your boat, measure up and talk to you about what you want (or think or want). He should also come back to fit the sail. Obviously not so relevant for OD stuff eg Farr 30 etc Click to expand...

I think in San Francisco I was dealing with North and Quantum directly. Probably not like down under.

Alcatraz5768

Super Anarchist

3,171 331 Auckland New Zealand This is a funny thing. How do people like me and you deal with Norths or Quantum directly? Surely we are dealing with people. And people can care, or not. Or have pride in their work, or not. Or be going through a rough patch personally and not have their mind on the job, or choose to take extra special care of your sails as the guy measuring the sail has the same model of boat. My point being that we never actually deal with "x company" but with other people. It's all relationships. Sorry to derail.

allene222

Super Anarchist

4,014 104 SF Bay ^^ Well, that is true but you are not just dealing with one person when you are dealing with a company. The salesman I had at Quantum was tops. I could not hope every in the rest of my sailing life to find as knowledgeable and qualified a salesman. But he hands it off to a designer at Quantum who takes the dimensions and designs the sails. In my case he designed Dacron sails like they were made out of non stretch carbon cloth with no leach hollow so they flopped around and had to be recut. Quantum then fired the designer. The story with North was similar. The guy in the local loft took perfect dimensions. Clew is 1 inch down and 1.4 inches up. Sailmaker makes the sail for 1 inch up and 1.4 inches up so the clew is expecting a pin way up in the air where there is no pin. Mistakes made by Quantum and North, not the local loft. Not mistakes in measuring the boat, mistakes in interpreting those numbers and making the sail. These were high end Dacron sails, their best cloth in both cases. Assuming you can call Dacron high end... Maybe you would do better with a local loft where there are fewer people involved rather than these big companies where you are dealing with many people, or at least your sail is dealing with many people.

bowgeezer

Member

484 0 Truth is that if you're dealing with a "personality" that is employed by a company, that "personality" is a direct extension of the company, their business practices, their ethics, and their dedication to customer service. Part of a company's success is how well they impart those values to their people as it has a huge effect on public perception and the choices we make as consumers. If the "company" is a one or two man shop that is paying for their own marketing campaigns, buying small batches of sail cloth and supplies, and paying rent on their own building, that often translates to a more expensive product. The small local sail maker often has to work much harder (measure the boat, coddle the boat owner, etc.) just to have a shot at competing with the big boys (if they exist in the local market). So you may get somewhat more personalized service from an independent as he has more on the line than an employee of a franchised loft. But, say you live in an area that is underserved by sail makers in general. Now you rely on buying sails by long distance, doing much of the legwork yourself. There are no shortage of options for you and sometimes, you can make a purchase based on the recommendation of others that have the same boat as yourself, OR you can be persuaded by advertising and brand identity. To some, having a "North" decal on a mail order sail means that the company puts their reputation on the product in the same manner that they brand their Grand Prix competition sails. It was one of the most risky thing that North did by changing the name of their mail order sails from "Cruising Direct" to "North Direct". People would expect the same level of quality regardless of how it was purchased or which loft was making it. In fact, if you have a certain "value" of boat, say any cruising boat under 32 ft that is more than 25 years old (AKA 4ktSB), North goes out of its way to talk you into one of their North Direct products because they have that product custom tailored to fit the budget and needs of the "good old boat" owner. Why? Because the local North loft can charge a lot more money building sails for the next J-122 or Morris 36 client. Sails could be one of the most difficult items to build with consistency due to the variables of construction. And as stated earlier, if you buy on price alone, you will typically be disappointed with the results of the product you buy. A

Alex W

Super Anarchist

3,645 609 Seattle, WA

bowgeezer said: In fact, if you have a certain "value" of boat, say any cruising boat under 32 ft that is more than 25 years old (AKA 4ktSB), North goes out of its way to talk you into one of their North Direct products because they have that product custom tailored to fit the budget and needs of the "good old boat" owner. Why? Because the local North loft can charge a lot more money building sails for the next J-122 or Morris 36 client. Click to expand...

That wasn't my experience with the local (Seattle) North Sails office when I talked to them. This was three years ago, I had a Catalina 25 (tall rig, which isn't common enough for lofts to keep that sail in stock) and needed a new main. I knew nothing about sails. I didn't know that North Sails Direct existed. I just knew that my main sail was ripped from luff to leech and needed replacing. North Sails gave me a quote, talked me through what I was looking at, and were generally helpful. In comparison Ullman (who had a local loft at the time) told me just to buy my sail through Catalina Direct and that they couldn't do any better by measuring the boat. Catalina Direct sails are batch made by Ullman for the common Catalina sailboats and the functional equivalent of North Sails Direct. I ended up purchasing from a smaller local loft (Ballard Sails). That experience was good and I've bought other sails from them since. I've always preferred working with smaller businesses when possible.

allene222

Super Anarchist

4,014 104 SF Bay Part of my problem is that I was buying racing sails but they were made of dacron. The designer saw the deck sweeping sails and did what he normally does, but those sails are normally not dacron. Having a wood boat means you must have some give in the sails. Kind of like what happens when you put radial tires on an old 48 spoke wire wheel. You end up buying 72 spoke replacement wheels when you get tired of hearing spokes break. My main has a fairly large roach but a wood mast and wood boom. That meant I can't put a lot of mast bend on and the boom isn't straight with things bolted on it, the boom has cutouts and things that normally are above the bolt rope are below it. All these things and the loss in communication going from my salesman to the designers led to trouble you probably would not have if you are buying standard cruising sails for a Catalina 36.

A3A

Member

378 175 North Direct products are designed and built side by side with North's regular sails in a Sir Lankan facility owned and operated by North. North Direct uses NorDac fabrics which are woven and finished under North Cloth supervision to their constructions and specs. Those are the same fabrics they use for almost all of the Dacron sails North builds. The price savings come from limiting North Direct to boats of smaller size and limiting features and options while charging for some things that are included on the regular North product. They also expect you to be able to measure your own boat, which quite frankly is something I'd prefer to do. If you rely on measuring the existing (xx year old) sails, then the best you can hope for is a mediocre result, regardless of the sailmaker. If you have any sailmaker rely on a sailplan for your xx year old production boat, be damn sure you have the exact make and model of your boat correct. Many builders had multiple rigs for the same hull over the years and it's a bitch to try and confirm the boat matches the plans if you haven't measured the boat. With only an aging tattered sailplan, the best he can do is construct a generic set of sails to fit what the plan calls for and it's pretty common for older boats to have been modified in some way by previous owners. If I'm going to spend a couple of grand on new sails, spending an hour or two measuring to supply accurate info in order to save money is a no brainer. By following the detailed measurement form they provide, I know I've given the sail designer the information he needs to make my sail fit my boat.

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