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| My goal is to run a new tier 4 case tractor. What I do not want to do is run it with def fluid. Is there a way to run without this fluid? Can we over ride the sensors to make the brains of the tractor think everything is working fine? Any input on this topic would be great. Thanks |
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| Manitoba, Canada | no |
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| Devils Lake, ND | I'm sure kits will be coming. |
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Mike, that seems odd for you to ask that question after looking at your e-mail address. |
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| Josh, not that odd, I think alot of people will be doing this. Or are all ready doing this. I think it is possible. My basic train of thought on the subject would be to test all voltages going into and out of the DENOX supply module from the temp/tank level sensor, tank heater control valve, DEF dosing nozzle, upstream temp sensor, NOX sensor and downstream Temp sensor while the system is operating properly. Cut off the sensors and mimic those voltages on the appropriate lines and then the system thinks it is working properly while not using any Def? Would there still be any error codes thrown off by doing this? Thoughts? Ideas? |
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I think you're on the right track. |
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| It'd take some work. At the most basic level you have a NOx emission sensor in the exhaust and a quality sensor in the tank that determines if it is filled with DEF or something else. Compound that the SCR module would likely monitor whether or not it is spraying and communicates with darn near everything over CAN bus and it becomes exceedingly hard to spoof. It's bad enough that when in the past a manufacturer would have a sensor work by voltage, it now isn't uncommon for sensors to communicate to the PCM by CAN.Edited by Maxzillian 8/4/2011 14:54 |
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| I think the legality of it would be the main concern. I bet you could do it, but I would definitely want to be on good terms with anyone who has to turn a wrench on that unit. Mav |
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| I understand that the DENOX supply module would be on the Can, but the sensors would just be sending a signal voltage back to the module, which then converts and sends info back to the Can. Would these sensors actually be separate controllers on the Can? One of the problems That I can think of in my "sensor voltage mimic theory" would be the issue of time or some type of def fluid or exhaust quality parameter set into the DENOX supply module that would cause it to throw an error code when it gets data over time that is outside of it's set parameter. Thoughts? Ideas? |
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| The Internet | If you have the brains, skills, knowledge to do all this, Shirley you could but it to better use than saving a few pennies on a bit of DEF (which isn't very expensive) unless you are planning on marketing the cheat kits. Even then, how many people would be interested in it compared to using your knowledge on something more legit? DEF really is no big deal. |
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| Pretender, The price of the DEF is not the big deal to the farmers. It is the logistics of it. Changing the setup on your fuel truck to have a separate def tank and pump along with the storage issues that come with def. (freezing, Sun degradation). Hahaha I could use some of those legit ideas to put all my "skills" to use. I think farmers would pay for a kit that could do this, even if it did void the warranty. The legality is not really an issue. Many farmers void the warranty on combines by adding power chips. |
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| Central Iowa | Not to be insulting but if you have to ask, you have no idea what you are getting into. This would seem like an easy trick, along the same lines as spoofing the ECU for more horsepower (2000’s tech). Problem is you are going up against a legal requirement from Uncle Sam to the engine OEMs to not make this easy, aka you won’t be able to do it by faking sensors (2010’s tech – CAN bus sensors, message encryption, engine system models, and a ton more ECU processing power to make sure everything is running just right). On the other hand, you could build your own engine test bay and hire a few electrical and software engineers to reverse engineer the entire engine control system…then you wouldn’t need DEF. Good Luck. Edited by tractordriver4320 8/4/2011 15:47 |
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| I saw a couple youtubes where a new truck was driven 10,000 miles using water you tube: california truck emmissions def is mixture of water and urea.Edited by greg33 8/4/2011 16:08 |
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 NC Iowa | Crush: "The legality is not really an issue" Might be the understatement for the month... You are not only going against manufacturers recommendations, you are going against federal laws... There is timers and out of limit faults for the NOX sensors. Good luck, it will be done but why??? You could buy a years worth of DEF for the cost of frying one sensor, or better yet five years worth when you fry an ECM. If you can carry a jug of water out to the tractor you can carry a jug of DEF out there too. It's really not that hard.Edited by mafrif 8/4/2011 15:55 |
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| michigan | i know a guy that cuts his def fluid half and half with water and he claim it has worked fine he says it does not know if it is straight fluid or diluted down. not saying it is right or wrong just know that this is what some guys are doing and it is working for them he claims if he has to take it back for warranty he will just fill it up with straight fluid i guess time will tell |
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| The Internet | Logistics? Just how much DEF do you think you are going to use in a day? |
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| mw | DEF usage in pickups is timed out to need a refill about every oil change, not sure if this is true on tractors or not but if it is you really dont need to "reconfigure" your fuel truck. I appreciate your thoughts here, however it just seems to be more of a waste of time than its worth. Then again every operation is different, just my personal thoughts. I too could use some of these legit ideas! |
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 | mafrif - you are going against federal laws....You mean the federal laws that the feds always seem to conveniently exempt themselves from? This would be the least of my worries. |
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| Kansas | I just ran a new sp Hesston windrower two days ago and the the product specialist told me the DEF would need filled about every three days. |
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| Every second time you fill your fuel tank |
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| well did some digging on this, turns out the sensors are not on the canbus. Only the DENOX supply module is an actual CAN controller. I am still gonna give it a try. Will let ya know how it goes. |
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| Near-north Ontario, French River | How often do you fill and how much DEF is needed for a "fill". |
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| Flora IL | Seemed to work for us.... Not exactly need a 2nd fuel truck |
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| North Dakota | Let us know how it works for you. Just know up front the cost of repair parts for the DEF system, sensors are from $400 to $1500 each, and the real kicker is the muffler is----- wait for it----------- $9800.00. If any of these fail under warranty you could be responsible for the cost of replacement. I'm not positive how the system knows if it is hooked up correct but on a new car with an O2 sensor if the voltages do not vary in the correct pattern it will kick up a fault code. John Deere does not use DEF on their high hp tractors they use an EGR system. |
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| If you figure it out and make it work sign me up for one. I very much dislike dealing with def. |
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| West Kentucky | There is such a thing as stupid cheep. |
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| Downtown Shell Knob MO Come Visit! | What if I never have enough money to fill my fuel tank :) |
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| Downtown Shell Knob MO Come Visit! | I know this is hot topic and I would normally jump on board.and say screw the EPA, get all those sensors bypassed and get back to buisness as normal. But whats the big problem. DEF isn't very expensive and causes no performance problems. IF anything I would be looking to get EGR stuff off of non-DEF engines in order to inhance performance and fuel efficency. I understand the logistics problem. But most farmers that are complaining about DEF logistics are the same farmers that haul around 15 tanks on there sprayer tender or planter tender truck all with different chemicals or fertilizers. And also have a service truck that already contains 3 types of grease, 4 types of hydraulic oil. A couple different engine oils, And a diesel additive or 2 to mix in there diesel tank. If its that cheap and you are well off enough to be driving a new tractor, why not just use the stuff and sleep good at night knowing that you are doing your little part to keep the birds singing trees green and ozone layer intact. |
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| Southern Ontario | If you dont like using DEF... |
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| I don't think the muffler is warranty exempt. There is federal law that a manufacturer must warranty emission components (injectors, pump, turbo, DEF system, etc) for 3 or 5 years to the original owner of the equipment. Seeing as how the muffler contains a reaction core for the SCR system, it would fall under that emissions warranty. So how much does an engine cost when the EGR system plugs it up or the EGR cooler fails and dumps coolant down the intake? :) |
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