Am I Choosing The Right Car For The Right Reasons? 2003 BMW Z4 Vs ...

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• Am I choosing the right car for the right reasons? 2003 BMW Z4 vs New Mazda MX-5 ND

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Results 1 to 25 of 25 Thread: Am I choosing the right car for the right reasons? 2003 BMW Z4 vs New Mazda MX-5 ND

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1. 07-12-2015, 08:43 AM #1 grandphuba
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   Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

   Am I choosing the right car for the right reasons? 2003 BMW Z4 vs New Mazda MX-5 ND

   Read the last paragraph for tl;dr I mainly work at home and as such, I really do not need a car for commuting. But being at home most of the time, there's not much I can do to kill time even with the hobbies I have. As such, I'm trying to look for a fun car that I can bring out to the road and drive for the thrill. When I first saw the Z4, I fell in love with it, couldn't find any other car that could top it (style-wise), or at least on its price-range. Fell in love more when I got to try it out in one of the local dealers. But during the course of my shopping, its novelty started wearing off. Then now comes in the new Mazda MX5 ND. I really didn't like its looks at first, but as time pass by, I see it sportier than ever, even more so than the Z4, which I now find look too "heavy". Granted, the MX5 is more of a 'sports' car while the Z4 is more a GT car. The MX5, however, lacks the power and creature comforts of the Z4. No heated seats, limited adjustment to the seats, manually operated roof, and up to 2.0L engine only (155 HP). The MX5 is 30% lighter I believe (is this enough to compensate the lack of a big engine?) and has a built-in navigation and modern infotainment system. The Z4 I'm looking at is a 12 year old used one with 90k miles on it, although I had a trusted mechanic inspect it and he found no glaring issue with it. The MX5 when I buy it, will be new, but will be 60% more expensive. I can afford either car and even their maintenance, but while both seem to be fun cars, I'm not sure if it is worth to cough up 60% more just to get a brand new car who has only a few better features than the Z4. Perhaps the handling is better for the MX5? PS: I asked this one here since I have the impression that if I asked this in a Mazda forum, they will say MX5 just for the fact that it is brand new. Let me know if you need more details. Thanks!

   Last edited by grandphuba; 07-12-2015 at 08:46 AM.

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2. 07-12-2015, 09:58 AM #2 wdb
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   Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location the perimeter Posts 115 My Cars 2007 Z4C, 2012 Tacoma

   How many cylinders does the Z4 have?

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3. 07-12-2015, 10:40 AM #3 GeorgeT
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   Member Join Date Jun 2007 Location Seneca, SC Posts 364 My Cars 2007 750i BMW; 2003 Z4 3.0 BMW; 2002 Lexus LS430;

   Originally Posted by wdb How many cylinders does the Z4 have? All older Z4's have in-line 6's but some of the new ones may have 4's.

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4. 07-12-2015, 11:02 AM #4 grandphuba
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   Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

   Originally Posted by GeorgeT All older Z4's have in-line 6's but some of the new ones may have 4's. Correct, the 2003 Z4 E85 has 6 in-line cylinders. The MX5 I'm looking at has 4 in-line cylinders. Worth noting is that the Z4 I'm looking at is a 5-speed manual, while the MX5 is a 6-speed one.

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5. 07-12-2015, 02:19 PM #5 ebruder
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   Member Join Date Sep 2007 Location Cleveland,OH Posts 255 My Cars '07 Z4MC, Porsche 928 S4

   You'll find the Z4 to be far from a GT versus sports car. Drive it aggressively and you'll find its enormous potential. The MX-5 is a fun little car, but not in the same league. I can't comment on comparative value. EB

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6. 07-12-2015, 04:08 PM #6 BimmerBreaker
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   Sim Simma Moderator Join Date Jan 2008 Location Arida Zona Posts 31,026 My Cars z3

   The Z4 is a very capable car, but to make it a real sport's car you may want to throw a Z4M rack into it (EPS delete) and LSD. The chassis is enormously capable. But as the miata was designed so many years later I wouldn't be surprised to hear it handles better, but it will be down on power a bit. Have you driven both? Driving them both would be the only way I could make a decision between the two...

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7. 07-12-2015, 04:36 PM #7 anon4you
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   Member Join Date Apr 2012 Location california Posts 8 My Cars 2003 BMW Z4 2.5i

   Before I bought my used 2003 Z4 about 8 years ago, I had also test driven a new (at that time) Mazda MX5. There was no question that the Z4 was a more fun, stable but super-sporty drive. I went with the 2003 Z4 and have had a fantastic time for the last several years - highly recommend it. The manually operated roof on the MX5 was not for me, and anyway the car shuddered at speeds above 60. I would recommend you drive it and see how you like the handling at speeds you expect to go at - for me, the Z4 was a no-brainer. Great at higher speeds, great at curves. Hope this helps! Good luck, enjoy your drive.

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8. 07-13-2015, 01:17 PM #8 Simpsonn89
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   As someone who has owned both (NB MX-5, and '04 Z4), I'll say they're different in a handful of ways, and it comes down to what you're looking for. I loved my MX-5 and planned on driving it until the wheels fell off. The only reason I don't still have it is it was hit and totaled. I went from it to a 2000 M Roadster to the '04 Z4 with a 2.5. The MX-5 down in HP, but driving it you wouldn't notice. It feels fast (even if it's not). It's nimble, handles like it's on rails out of the box and only gets better as you tweak the suspension. I'm guessing that the ND will be the same way, but vastly improved (15 years of R&D will do that). The way the guys on the Miata forum will describe the driving experience is that, "You can drive it at 90%, 90% of the time." Because it's got very little weight and a very low center of gravity, it loves the twistys. Be aware that it revs considerably more than the Z. In that regard I found the Z to be tamer. At least in the NB models, the MX-5 has a 4.30 final drive from factory. This makes it quite rev happy but helps compensate for the lake of power. There is a large aftermarket supply for the MX-5 and just as many people who like to tinker with it as there are BMW enthusiasts for the Z. Stop by Miata.net's forum (forum.miata.net/vb) and you'll see just what they do. For the pure driving experience, I'd take the MX-5. But as you mentioned, they are spartan when it comes to creature comforts. With regards to the manual top, it was one of my favorite features. You'll find BMW will not let you put your top up or down unless you come to a complete stop. This wasn't an issue with the Mazda at all, and from what I understand the ND uses a single latch which is even more convenient than the NB (two latches). The other thing to realize with the MX-5 is that you almost always (read everything but the base model and even then it's an option) get a LSD. With regards to the Z, you only get it in the M model or have to spend big bucks aftermarket. With the Z, you will definitely get more creature comforts and it feels considerably more solid. I've had mine for just over a year now and love getting into it every time. My parents also own one and love it. The seats are on par with the MX-5 if not slightly more comfortable though I can't speak for the new ND. The Z4 is definitely more enjoyable and comfortable for long rides. I've done long trips in both, and would take the Z any day in that regard. It's more subdued going down the highway than the buzzy MX-5. This is due in part to all the insulation that you don't get with the Mazda and part to do with the gearing. At least in mine, the final drive is a 3.46. In the 2003-2005 range you can end up with anything from a 3.06 - 3.64, none quite as rev happy as the Miata, but you don't need it for the extra power. If you do feel the need for a bit more "pep" the diff can easily be changed and is referred to as the "poor man's supercharger". Both engines are easy enough to work on and fun to do so if you're interested in wrenching. The Z you have more room to fiddle with and add options especially given that it is 12 years old and out of warranty. I've added heated seats, a 7 Series mirror with Homelink and compass and auto-dim, Sport mode, alarm and too many other things to think of. The pre-facelift Zs came pre-wired for every option, and that includes options that weren't options (compass mirror, lumbar support etc). You can also download NCS software to enable options that BMW turned off from factory. All in all, both are great cars, and I'm going to make the assumption that the ND will blow my old NB out of the water. However, I would recommend, as above, driving both and seeing what you think. As you said, raising cost 60% is kind of a bummer. For less than that, you could buy the Z and supercharge! Better features is iffy. If you have a smart phone, you can buy a Media-bridge that plugs into the Z factory harness that gives you bluetooth (navigation and Pandora issues solved) for $124 shipped. With regards to the HP, in a 2003 you're looking at 184HP (2.5i) or 225 (3.0i). The Miata has 155. So if you adjust for the weight difference your looking at what would be about 129 (2.5i) or 157 (3.0i). That comes out as kind of a wash. To ward of getting flamed, I know that there is way more than HP/weight ratio that goes into the equation, this is just an example. I'm happy to talk to you about my experience with either of the cars if you have any questions. Best of luck with getting the right car and I hope this helps a bit!

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9. 07-14-2015, 07:19 PM #9 grandphuba
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   Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

   Hi guys, thank you for all your replies, helps a lot in deciding (though I still haven't ). @BimmerBreaker and @Simpsonn89, you both mentioned adding LSD to the car. I've read somewhere that BMW decided not to add the LSD since it could be emulated by the DTC/DSC (forgot which one). Would adding LSD really make a difference? @Simpsonn89, funny, I believe I was looking at the 2003 model, but it already has heated seats and the sport button. Were those not included in your unit? Also, as for the pre-facelift units, those would be the 2003-2008 models right? As for the adjusted power-to-weight ratio, I believe your numbers are off. The 2.5i Z4 weighs at 1,335 kg and can produce 189 HP. Adjusting that to the weight of the new MX5 @ 1041 kg, I get around 147 HP, but your point still stands. It turns out the Z4 is the one lacking in power and renders my argument against getting the MX5 for having a smaller engine invalid? Or is it wrong to judge a car's "push" with just this metric? The Z4 I'm looking at is also a titanium silver one. I really prefer the space gray/sepang bronze ones, not too light, but also not too dark to hide the shadows of the lines. Too bad I can't find any of those in the market. If I had the cash, is it possible to have it repainted by a reputable shop or is it virtually impossible to get the quality/gloss of units fresh from the factory?

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10. 07-14-2015, 07:28 PM #10 montaillou
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    explodes. Join Date Feb 2008 Location Pac.NW Posts 4,949 My Cars '03 Z4, '85 Subaru Wagon, '87 Suzuki Savage LS650

    As for your 60% price difference...why not buy a used Mazda?

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11. 07-14-2015, 07:28 PM #11 grandphuba
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    Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

    For some reason I posted a reply but didn't get through. Anyway, thank you for all your replies, helps a lot in deciding (though I still haven't ). @BimmerBreaker and @Simpsonn89, you both mentioned adding LSD to the car. I've read somewhere that BMW decided not to add the LSD since it could be emulated by the DTC/DSC (forgot which one). Would adding LSD really make a difference? @Simpsonn89, funny, I believe I was looking at the 2003 model, but it already has heated seats and the sport button. Were those not included in your unit? Also, as for the pre-facelift units, those would be the 2003-2008 models right? As for the adjusted power-to-weight ratio, I believe your numbers are off. The 2.5i Z4 weighs at 1,335 kg and can produce 189 HP. Adjusting that to the weight of the new MX5 @ 1041 kg, I get around 147 HP, but your point still stands, it is the Z4 that is lacking in power. Does this render my argument against getting the MX5 for having a smaller engine invalid? Or is it wrong to judge a car's "push" with just this metric? Lastly, the Z4 I'm looking at is a titanium silver one. I prefer the space gray/sepang bronze ones as they aren't too bright nor are they too dark to hide the shadows of the lines, too bad there aren't any in the market. Given that and assuming that I have the cash, is it possible to have it repainted by a reputable shop with the quality/gloss similar to the units fresh from the factory or is something like that impossible?

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12. 07-14-2015, 07:34 PM #12 grandphuba
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    Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

    @Montaillou, I really didn't consider the previous Mazda MX-5s given that their only possible pro is the (marginally) better handling and that a used MX-5 NC cost almost the same as a brand new ND. PS: I'm not really sure why my other replies need to be moderated (perhaps they were too long), but in any case, thank you guys for replying to this post. I have a few more questions but hopefully a moderator will approve the posts so I wouldn't have to write them up again.

    Last edited by grandphuba; 07-14-2015 at 07:38 PM.

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13. 07-14-2015, 09:04 PM #13 Simpsonn89
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    Hi, Grandphuba, Your inbox is full. Hopefully I can be as thorough in my reply as I was in the post. BMW does claim that DTC/DSC emulates LSD, and I'd say with some regards it does. However, similar to the old adage of there's no replacement for displacement, the DTC/DSC doesn't quite get there. Both my MX-5 and the M Roadster I had were equipped with true LSD and you can tell a difference. In most situations, it's sufficient to get you through, but if you're in any kind of performance situation (vs just spirited twisties) you'll notice the difference. Most people will claim that you should get it, but if you're not going to be doing anything like autocross or the like, you'll be just fine without. The LSD does come in handy in that kind of situation. Mine Z4 wasn't actually equipped with either of those two options from factory, but given that I like to fiddle with my cars anyway, I didn't mind adding them. It's a matter of getting the right bits and pieces and plugging them in. Sport mode was slightly different because you have to mess with the programming a bit, but the wiring was already in place under the center console. I just had to drill the hole. Pre-facelift are the 2003-2005 model E85s. In 2006, the front fascia was changed and the rear was changed (different style taillights) and different angles on the bumper. The post facelift models weren't pre-wired for any option they weren't ordered with. I'd say with regards to the power/weight ratio, it's going to be a push. I wouldn't say your argument is invalid. That's especially true when you start to factor in the gearing differences between the two cars. The MX-5 is geared higher, so it feels like it has more torque than it does and compensates for the lack of true HP. When considering it on a purely 0-60 view, the 2003/04 Z with a 2.5i is rated at 7.1sec. A stock 2000 MX-5 is 7.4sec. When you get into NCs, it drops to under 6secs. The ND is a further improvement and every review I've read thus far has had it solidly below the 7sec mark. Given cash on hand it is definitely a possibility to have it repainted. There is a guy here on the forum that did something very similar. He bought a Z4M and decided he wanted to build the "ultimate Z4" and started modding. His choice of color was a Lamborghini silver that he had a shop mix up custom and had his entire car redone. With regards to that, it's all up to what your looking to spend and what kind of shops you have to deal with in your area. Seeing Montaillou's reply made me think, if you consider looking at used Mazdas, skip out on the first couple years of the NC, they had electrical gremlins. It's also worth noting they gained a bit of weight over the NBs. While mentioning them, you might look at adding the Mazdaspeed Miata (produced 04-05) to your short list. It's going to be faster than the other Mazdas by a happy margin, and is easily upgradable (Mazda was *very* conservative with there turbo tuning). Hope this helps! Nic Originally Posted by grandphuba Hi, for some reason, my replies to my thread (re: mx5 ND vs Z4) didn't go through. I think a moderator needs to approve them first but I'm a bit paranoid that it will just get lost and all that I've written up will be lost. Anyway, thank you for your thorough reply, helps a lot in deciding (though I still haven't ). Both you and @BimmerBreaker mentioned adding LSD to the car. I've read somewhere that BMW decided not to add the LSD since it could be emulated by the DTC/DSC (forgot which one). Would adding LSD really make a difference? On another note, I believe I was looking at the 2003 model, but it already has heated seats and the sport button. Were those not included in your unit? As for the pre-facelift units, those would be the 2003-2008 models right? As for the adjusted power-to-weight ratio, I believe your numbers are off. The 2.5i Z4 weighs at 1,335 kg and can produce 189 HP. Adjusting that to the weight of the new MX5 @ 1041 kg, I get around 147 HP, but your point still stands, it is the Z4 that is lacking in power. Does this render my argument against getting the MX5 for having a smaller engine invalid? Or is it wrong to judge a car's "push" with just this metric? Lastly, the Z4 I'm looking at is a titanium silver one. I prefer the space gray/sepang bronze ones as they aren't too bright nor are they too dark to hide the shadows of the lines, too bad there aren't any in the market. Given that and assuming that I have the cash, is it possible to have it repainted by a reputable shop with the quality/gloss similar to the units fresh from the factory or is something like that impossible? Please feel free to reply via PM or through my thread, just wanted to make sure these questions do get through. I really appreciate the help. Thanks!

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14. 07-14-2015, 10:24 PM #14 BimmerBreaker
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    Sim Simma Moderator Join Date Jan 2008 Location Arida Zona Posts 31,026 My Cars z3

    Originally Posted by Simpsonn89 the 2003/04 Z with a 2.5i is rated at 7.1sec

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15. 07-15-2015, 07:43 AM #15 grandphuba
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    Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

    @Simpsonn89, thanks again for the thorough response. I'll definitely look up into adding an LSD. I'll admit, I really have no idea how different setups will feel different as I really don't have that much experience driving cars and that the car bug just bit me recently lately when I saw a few ads and got interested. Most of my experience is with a Toyota Vios (not mine), so I'm pretty excited getting a different car to drive. @BimmerBreaker, as I said, I'm not really fluent with cars yet, but why are you confused with that stat?

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16. 07-18-2015, 11:00 AM #16 Patrick Gent
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    I can only add limited experience. I drive a 2007 M Coupe. Power up the wazou, but it is an M. I do track days with my son in his 99 Miata. While I have never put my M on the track, and it handles very well when I push it on the street, I still believe that the lightness and "flick-ability" of the Miata far exceeds the Z. Or, at least in driver feel--the Z4 might be able to generate as much lateral G force as the Miata, it feels great but feels heavier that the Miata. If the power issue comes out about even (as the 0-60 figures above suggest), I think the pure sporty driving experience in the Miata will beat a non-M Z4. But, the Z4 is clearly a "classier" car and more comfortable as a daily driver. I am frustrated with the high cost of BMW ownership and their apparent attitude that they build a car to last the warranty and that is all (if you buy the z4, Do Not follow the factory fluid change intervals), and suspect that the Mazda is less costly to own and, as someone suggested, has a huge community of aftermarket parts available. Frustrated as I am with BMW, I would never trade my 92,000 mile M for a brand new Miata--but the rarity and coolness of the M is a big factor there.

    Last edited by Patrick Gent; 07-18-2015 at 11:01 AM.

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17. 07-20-2015, 07:24 PM #17 montaillou
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    explodes. Join Date Feb 2008 Location Pac.NW Posts 4,949 My Cars '03 Z4, '85 Subaru Wagon, '87 Suzuki Savage LS650

    Originally Posted by Patrick Gent ...it feels great but feels heavier that the Miata. The z4 is about 1,000 lbs heavier than the Miata.

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18. 07-22-2015, 06:21 PM #18 grandphuba
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    Member Join Date Jul 2015 Location Paranaque, NCR, Philippin Posts 8 My Cars BMW Z4

    Originally Posted by Patrick Gent While I have never put my M on the track, and it handles very well when I push it on the street, I still believe that the lightness and "flick-ability" of the Miata far exceeds the Z. Or, at least in driver feel--the Z4 might be able to generate as much lateral G force as the Miata, it feels great but feels heavier that the Miata. Hi Patrick, thank you for replying. Is flickability/tossability a nice thing? As for your comment with the Z being more heavy than the MX-5, I take that as something you do not prefer, is that right? Sorry for these questions, I have limited experience with cars so I'm not really sure which type of experience is better over another. Originally Posted by Patrick Gent If the power issue comes out about even (as the 0-60 figures above suggest), I think the pure sporty driving experience in the Miata will beat a non-M Z4. But, the Z4 is clearly a "classier" car and more comfortable as a daily driver. The Z4 I might be buying is a 12 year old one. Do you still feel that it is classier than the new MX-5? I know this is a subjective question but I'd like to hear your take on it. Thanks!

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19. 07-24-2015, 01:19 AM #19 esp42089
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    Just my feeling, but maybe go out and test drive a bunch of different cars. You don't seem to have a clear idea of what you even want from your car, and that makes it hard for anyone to help you. Once you've driven some cars, you'll know better if you like a heavy planted car like the Z4 or the light, floaty feel of a car like the miata. It is in many ways abstract and only driving them will reveal it to you.

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20. 07-24-2015, 03:03 PM #20 grandphuba
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    Originally Posted by esp42089 Just my feeling, but maybe go out and test drive a bunch of different cars. You don't seem to have a clear idea of what you even want from your car, and that makes it hard for anyone to help you. Once you've driven some cars, you'll know better if you like a heavy planted car like the Z4 or the light, floaty feel of a car like the miata. It is in many ways abstract and only driving them will reveal it to you. You know what, what you just said makes perfect sense and is so simple, something that I should have considered doing from the start. There are just things that just need to be spelled out to you for you to realize the value of it.

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21. 07-24-2015, 05:51 PM #21 Patrick Gent
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    Sorry, I been to buried with work to even look on the forums. This is all subjective, so let me try to answer your questions. I love my car, it is both the best handling and most powerful car I have ever owned. The bottom line is that I cannot afford, for a whole bunch of reasons, to risk damaging or destroying it on the track, so I have never had a chance to really use everything it has. My adult son's 1999 Miata, which cost him $5000 probably seven years ago, is what we take on the track. That car is way underpowered compared to my M, but I can't tell you the pure joy of its handling, or what I called flickability. As far as this amateur sports car guy knows, that is a combination of really good suspension, really good balance, and a lot less weight. I'm sure I would come off the track session in my M with the huge grin on my face, but I think I would probably be a lot sweatier getting the car around turns even though it's still better than 99% of the cars out there. A great handling car, but just not the lightness and sheer joy of cornering that you get with the Miata. (This may all fit in with the idea mentioned right above that you need to figure out exactly what you're looking for.)To answer your other question, I guess it depends and how you define classier. In the first place, I love rare cars. If I remember the numbers right, they only sold 2700 M Coupes in North America. I'm sure there are a lot fewer Z 4s than there are Miata was on the road. I think a Z4 is a little bigger and probably a little more comfortable as a daily driver, though that 12 years can make a difference. I don't really know what creature comforts are available with the new Miata; the 1999 one I know is a pretty lean automobile. I guess what I'm trying to say, generally, is that unless the Z4 is pretty worn-out, it would be a great handling car that might be a step above even the new Miata in terms of being comfortable or luxurious, if that's the right idea. If I was faced with your choice, and relying on what others have said that the power difference between the brand-new Miata and the much older Z4 is not great, I am pretty comfortable I would go with the Miata to have a brand-new vehicle with much more life in it, a warranty, an easier and less expensive maintenance program and the huge aftermarket.

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22. 07-24-2015, 06:03 PM #22 montaillou
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    explodes. Join Date Feb 2008 Location Pac.NW Posts 4,949 My Cars '03 Z4, '85 Subaru Wagon, '87 Suzuki Savage LS650

    Originally Posted by Patrick Gent The bottom line is that I cannot afford, for a whole bunch of reasons, to risk damaging or destroying it on the track,... You might consider going out for a HPDE. These are done with instructors and usually in more controlled conditions. There is insurance available for the track, though probably with a pretty high deductible.

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23. 07-27-2015, 12:11 AM #23 esp42089
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    Originally Posted by grandphuba You know what, what you just said makes perfect sense and is so simple, something that I should have considered doing from the start. There are just things that just need to be spelled out to you for you to realize the value of it. If you go out and test drive a bunch of cars, you'll come back with some valuable opinions that we can work from to point you towards cars you may like. Some common opinions I hear about the miata and the z4 are: I didn't like how I had to really rev out the engine in the Miata to get any power and even then it was still slow. Or: I drove a Z4 and didn't like the feeling of the long hood and most of the car stretching out in front of me. It made the car feel unwieldy and bigger than it is. Even if you end up driving "plain" cars like a jetta or a corolla that aren't what you're looking for, it will give you opinions. As an example, if you come back and tell us you really liked the engine in the Jetta, we'll likely recommend you look for a turbocharged car instead of a naturally aspirated one (maybe a MINI convertible would be more enjoyable than the miata or the Z4 in that case).

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24. 08-06-2015, 10:12 AM #24 Patrick Gent
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    Member Join Date May 2010 Location Plantation (Fort Lauderdale), Florida Posts 24 My Cars 2007 M Coupe

    Originally Posted by esp42089 Or: I drove a Z4 and didn't like the feeling of the long hood and most of the car stretching out in front of me. It made the car feel unwieldy and bigger than it is. Man, I forgot about that. I really had that feeling when I first drove my car. Remember the scene in one of the Star Wars movies where young Luke (or maybe young Anakiin) is racing in the desert with essentially a seat hitched to two turbojets out front of him? Reminded me of that. Took all of two or three days to get over it, but might affect a test drive. - - - Updated - - - Originally Posted by montaillou You might consider going out for a HPDE. These are done with instructors and usually in more controlled conditions. There is insurance available for the track, though probably with a pretty high deductible. We do HPDE's in Matt's Miata. Greatest thing in the world is the new SCCA Track Night in America--once a month, on a weekday afternoon, close to both of us, and cheap. No instructors, but Matt rides with me as a novice and I ride along with him as an intermediate. Problem is, years ago I managed to wrap my Integra GSR around a tree in an autocross. Narrow out-and-back course, trees too close, and dumb mistake by me. So I am a little gun shy and wife shy. This will be the last performance car I will be able to buy, I am 62, so I have to make it last. I will look into the insurance--I know that SCCA has a specific link for the track nights.

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25. 08-06-2015, 07:34 PM #25 montaillou
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    explodes. Join Date Feb 2008 Location Pac.NW Posts 4,949 My Cars '03 Z4, '85 Subaru Wagon, '87 Suzuki Savage LS650

    Originally Posted by Patrick Gent ...years ago I managed to wrap my Integra GSR around a tree in an autocross. Ok, yeah, stick with the Miata on the track.

    Not so much a signature as a cry for help. Hold on, saw this in a cartoon once...think I can pull it off.

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