 07-25-2008, 08:22 AM | #1 | Bob_Spam I'm a good boy... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: lonely street Posts: 1,434 iTrader: 0  |  Top-Deck and Drawing, which is the best way to win.. um its really good thing to argue were would be the best way to win the game? Top-Decking or Drawing... Drawing is automatic hand cards with the use of mana... since when you're Drawing you're recurring your deck by more than 2 cards... and you use mana... so if you're Drawing you're getting 2 years out of your life span and you also using you're mana... the good thing though is,you're getting more hand cards and you have more choices to use destroy your opponent... Top-Decking is relying on the card you draw on your first turn... since you don't draw too much cards your opponents discarding cards will become useless... you tend to use your mana and you deck more wisely... |  |  | | Bob_Spam | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Bob_Spam | | 07-25-2008, 09:26 AM | #2 | | Kun Fu Master Oh **** Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sacramento the city of "Trees" Posts: 1,212 iTrader: 13 (93%) | ummmm youfail.org. | | | | | Kun Fu Master | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Kun Fu Master | | 07-25-2008, 10:41 AM | #3 | | ccgdb.com Join Date: Apr 2005 Age: 55 Posts: 189 iTrader: 0 | Quote: Originally Posted by dmisdead  ummmm youfail.org. | I would have to agree with "dmisdead". Your posts are reaching for something I think your use of language will always fail to grasp. However, this is a no-brainer, and deserves a small amount of commentary. Drawing is always the win condition, as it is the only way in which you can create options (draw creatures, spells, complete combos, etc.). The only issue is that drawing != solution/win every time, unless you can stack the deck via effect (ie. search/draw). Top-decking, by its very definition, is drawing the card you needed for the win/combo/save (ie. "mise"). However, it is purely luck, and cannot be relied upon. Therefore, it is not an efficient strategy (I wouldn't even list it as a "way" to win a game, as you have no control over it, and it is really just a sub-set of drawing). | | | | | ccgdb.com | | View Public Profile | | Visit ccgdb.com's homepage! | | Find More Posts by ccgdb.com | | 07-25-2008, 07:45 PM | #4 | | |TK|Rin ellöel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: BC Age: 37 Posts: 816 iTrader: 0 | It looks like by "draw" you mean Energy Stream and Brain Serum. But I can draw with creatures. Does that mean I'm a Duel Masters? You don't tend to bother playing your Energy Streams when they're going at your shields. In an aggro I try to use Lucky Ball instead. So anywayz, it ******* depends. But topdecking is something to avoid, especially beyond pure rush, where you can easily draw something too big, too small, or totally useless to the situation at hand. | | | | | |TK|Rin | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by |TK|Rin | | 07-26-2008, 05:08 AM | #5 | | Bob_Spam I'm a good boy... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: lonely street Posts: 1,434 iTrader: 0 | um, i said draw means you draw a card using mana... and it also includes summoning creatures... the point here is that which is better... drawing too much cards on your deck ... or top-decking and using all your available resources to have hand cards.. such as recursion, getting a card from mana.. and etc... so which is more effective..? | | | | | Bob_Spam | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Bob_Spam | | 07-26-2008, 08:24 AM | #6 | | hachihyaku Pojo Veteran Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,049 iTrader: 0 | "Card advantage: Good or Bad?" Seriously? | | | | | hachihyaku | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by hachihyaku | | 07-26-2008, 04:45 PM | #7 | | |TK|Rin ellöel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: BC Age: 37 Posts: 816 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by hachihyaku "Card advantage: Good or Bad?" Seriously? | He has a small point, in that paying 3 or 4 mana entirely for options tends not to be worth it in a really aggressive deck. He just phrases it badly, and thinks of it wrongly, and overall has mostly **** for brains. And if you don't already know, it's really happyaku for 800. Additional Comment: Quote: | Originally Posted by Bob_Spam um, i said draw means you draw a card using mana... and it also includes summoning creatures... the point here is that which is better... drawing too much cards on your deck ... or top-decking and using all your available resources to have hand cards.. such as recursion, getting a card from mana.. and etc... so which is more effective..? | To put it plainly, having a hand is always better than having no hand; the issue lies in the actual means of maintaining that hand. Your chances to make more appropriate plays are much better then, than random 1 in 40 drawing. Even if they can discard you, that detracts from other plays they could have made against you if you already had had no hand. So, add to your hand as much as possible while maintaining enough offense/defense. You do mention single draw type stuff via creatures, from the deck or mana/graveyard, and that's just minimal draw or tutoring. It lets you make 2 plays in a given turn, and perhaps choose a card to counter or combo, which you can't otherwise do while topdecking, but it's still preferable to have at least 1 or 2 extra options in hand as much as possible; to minimize bad topdecks, and maximize good counters and using your mana fully each turn to overwhelm them. After all, you can only topdeck a Splash Zebrafish so often, and you only have so much mana. It's about finding the right balance to make your deck as efficient as possible at what it does, and it sounds like you tend to favour the "too little" area, in regard to maintaining a hand. | | | | | |TK|Rin | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by |TK|Rin | | 07-27-2008, 06:49 PM | #8 | | hachihyaku Pojo Veteran Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,049 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by |TK|Rin And if you don't already know, it's really happyaku for 800. | It's a reference to an anime and spelled like that on purpose. It's also been my screen name and/or handle on everything ever for ten years. Curiously enough pojoers are the only ones who have ever thought that it's spelled wrong. | | | | | hachihyaku | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by hachihyaku | | 07-27-2008, 06:54 PM | #9 | | CVH Profoundessional Join Date: May 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 8,170 iTrader: 35 (95%) | If you always rely on your topdeck, your opponent even playing something like a locomotiver will **** you up. Drawing cards for obvious reasons. Learn to play. | | | | | CVH | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by CVH | | 07-27-2008, 07:08 PM | #10 | | Kun Fu Master Oh **** Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sacramento the city of "Trees" Posts: 1,212 iTrader: 13 (93%) | Quote: | Originally Posted by K33N Learn to play. | No learn to play well. | | | | | Kun Fu Master | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Kun Fu Master | | 07-27-2008, 07:11 PM | #11 | | |TK|Rin ellöel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: BC Age: 37 Posts: 816 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by hachihyaku It's a reference to an anime and spelled like that on purpose. It's also been my screen name and/or handle on everything ever for ten years. Curiously enough pojoers are the only ones who have ever thought that it's spelled wrong. | Aright coo. I had no idea. Just a noob into Japanese  Ok. Maybe other people are even more ignorant than pojoers. Anyway I'm pretty sure my gargantuan wall of text already smashed that guy. Then again I'm not positive he can really read. | | | | | |TK|Rin | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by |TK|Rin | | 07-29-2008, 08:25 PM | #12 | | Tom_Rogers Banned User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 182 iTrader: 1 (100%) | Quote: | Top-decking, by its very definition, is drawing the card you needed for the win/combo/save (ie. "mise"). However, it is purely luck, and cannot be relied upon. Therefore, it is not an efficient strategy (I wouldn't even list it as a "way" to win a game, as you have no control over it, and it is really just a sub-set of drawing). | Honestly I think faith is a very important part of the game. You can call me dorky or say I watched the TV show a little too much, but it is to my sincere belief that the way you present yourself and feel about the game greatly affects the outcome. As for the argument, I'm going to take the middle ground; I like to have 3, maybe 4 cards in my hand tops with a distinguished field presence. | | | | | Tom_Rogers | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Tom_Rogers | | 07-30-2008, 07:14 AM | #13 | | ccgdb.com Join Date: Apr 2005 Age: 55 Posts: 189 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by Tom_Rogers Honestly I think faith is a very important part of the game. You can call me dorky or say I watched the TV show a little too much, but it is to my sincere belief that the way you present yourself and feel about the game greatly affects the outcome. As for the argument, I'm going to take the middle ground; I like to have 3, maybe 4 cards in my hand tops with a distinguished field presence. | I wasn't discussing faith, or confidence, as a characteristic of game play. Relying on the "unknown" is not an efficient strategy. However, if you have half a dozen cards in your hand that could go off with half a dozen other cards that have yet to be drawn, then the odds that 1 specific card out of 40 is sitting on the top of your deck does improve dramatically...these odds increase/decrease depending on current board position, current duel length, and number of cards in your hand; ie. from a mathematical standpoint, ( beginning deck - starting draw - number of cards drawn (turns or effects) ) / starting deck total = raw percentage 1 card will be drawn raw percentage * (# of instances that specific card is in your deck - # of instances that specific card has already been drawn) = rough probability however, counting on that 1 card vs. counting on your ability to play the cards you have is not the smartest strategy. "Luck often enough, will save a man, if his courage hold." (extra points for movie reference) | | | | | ccgdb.com | | View Public Profile | | Visit ccgdb.com's homepage! | | Find More Posts by ccgdb.com | | 07-30-2008, 09:18 AM | #14 | | Tom_Rogers Banned User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 182 iTrader: 1 (100%) | Quote: | "Luck often enough, will save a man, if his courage hold." | This is the most effective strategy. | | | | | Tom_Rogers | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Tom_Rogers | | 07-31-2008, 12:12 AM | #15 | | RecJoe Pojo Veteran Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Earth, duh. Posts: 693 iTrader: 0 | Luck is obviously is too unreliable, which is why good deckbuilding skills are important. -RecJoe. | | | | | RecJoe | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by RecJoe | | 07-31-2008, 09:32 PM | #16 | | Tom_Rogers Banned User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 182 iTrader: 1 (100%) | Good Luck is a reward of Good Faith. | | | | | Tom_Rogers | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Tom_Rogers | | 08-01-2008, 11:02 AM | #17 | | ccgdb.com Join Date: Apr 2005 Age: 55 Posts: 189 iTrader: 0 | @RecJoe - much like Bob, Tom just doesn't want to get it. He will continue to harp on his point, thinking all the while that no one else's thoughts on the subject could mean anything. The fact is, luck only factors into an unskilled players game. | | | | | ccgdb.com | | View Public Profile | | Visit ccgdb.com's homepage! | | Find More Posts by ccgdb.com | | 08-01-2008, 11:10 AM | #18 | | Kun Fu Master Oh **** Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sacramento the city of "Trees" Posts: 1,212 iTrader: 13 (93%) | Yup toms a ass hole. | | | | | Kun Fu Master | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Kun Fu Master | | 08-01-2008, 01:32 PM | #19 | | ccgdb.com Join Date: Apr 2005 Age: 55 Posts: 189 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by dmisdead Yup toms a ass hole. | I didn't say that. Since I have never met him, and probably never will, the only reference I have to his character is what he types on this board. My statements had to do with gameplaying, and not about Tom personally. He seems to talk more to hear himself than to raise valid points. | | | | | ccgdb.com | | View Public Profile | | Visit ccgdb.com's homepage! | | Find More Posts by ccgdb.com | | 08-01-2008, 07:02 PM | #20 | | RecJoe Pojo Veteran Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Earth, duh. Posts: 693 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by ccgdb.com The fact is, luck only factors into an unskilled players game. | I don't think so, luck will affect everyone. Even if a player or his opponent is incredibly skilled and both have the best deckbuilding skills in the world to maximise their chances of a planned play, a topdecked Bombazar or Apocalypse Vise will definitely account as luck. Another point is that even good players at some point in time may also have to rely on luck when they are say, having their shields broken at once hoping for a game-reversing trigger or hoping for a good card when they are out of hand, but it is better to just..well..be good at building decks. -RecJoe. | | | | | RecJoe | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by RecJoe | | 08-01-2008, 08:38 PM | #21 | | CVH Profoundessional Join Date: May 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 8,170 iTrader: 35 (95%) | Luck is the only reason players like bob spam ever win. | | | | | CVH | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by CVH | | 08-01-2008, 08:45 PM | #22 | | RecJoe Pojo Veteran Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Earth, duh. Posts: 693 iTrader: 0 | Quote: | Originally Posted by K33N Luck is the only reason players like bob spam ever win. | He's won a game? -RecJoe. | | | | | RecJoe | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by RecJoe | | 08-01-2008, 11:11 PM | #23 | | Bob_Spam I'm a good boy... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: lonely street Posts: 1,434 iTrader: 0 | "for me one moment is all i need to destroy you and win the game... just one moment..." | | | | | Bob_Spam | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Bob_Spam | | 08-01-2008, 11:20 PM | #24 | | Kyuukei Space Wolf Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Boston, MA Age: 35 Posts: 732 iTrader: 4 (100%) | Quote: | Originally Posted by Bob_Spam "for me one moment is all i need to destroy you and win the game... just one moment..." | I wouldn't recommend making claims like that. It certainly isn't going to make anyone think better of you. ~Sniper989 | | | | | Kyuukei | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Kyuukei | | 08-01-2008, 11:32 PM | #25 | | Bob_Spam I'm a good boy... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: lonely street Posts: 1,434 iTrader: 0 | i`m not claiming... its just i only need a moment... just one moment.... besides i dont care if you think im a bad duelist... like so what? dude .. your free to think of anything you want... but saying bad stuff aint a good values... still the lucky shall win... | | | | | Bob_Spam | | View Public Profile | | Find More Posts by Bob_Spam | « Previous Thread | Next Thread » | Thread Tools |  Show Printable Version  Email this Page |  Posting Rules | | You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts vB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is Off HTML code is Off | | | Forum Jump User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Yu-Gi-Oh! 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Top-Deck and Drawing, which is the best way to win.. 