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Thread starter blueswah
Start date Dec 24, 2012

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blueswah

Gold Supporting Member Messages 636 I get confused every time I see these speakers. Can someone explain what the difference is between the Celestion G12H30's that have the Bass resonance values of 55hz and 75hz? Rod

Rod

Vibrato & String Bender on Overdrive

Gold Supporting Member Messages 27,257 There are 75 Hz cones and 55 Hz cones. The 55 's are darker sounding. I have used both with the smaller m magnets from Scumback...essentially a really good Greenback

Stu Blue

Member

Messages 3,167 The 55hz speaker were intended for bass (4x12 for bass were common in the UK in the '60s) The myth has grown up that the 55HZ were better for heavy rock... not true... the 75Hz cone "sing" and deliver controlled feedback far better... at least with Celestion G12Hs.... the internet is a mine of disinformation...... (Overdue Edit: as you will see later on in the thread not only is the internet a mine of dis-information but so have I on this subject... in my defense it turns out Celsestion confused many of us oldies by sticking 75Hz labels on 55Hz speakers....read on...) Last edited: Jan 7, 2013 R

Rodrigo Gonzalez

Member

Messages 53 Stu has explained it very well. 75hz cones are the standard, 55hz are very bassy and lack a lot of high midrange. Recently, a customer of mine had two Marshall Handwired straight cabs with 55hz speakers in his '74 50W, with the amp dimed these lacked a lot of gain, and seemed to have flabby bass even with that mid 70's amps that are really focused. We changed the speakers to G12C25's from Marshall 425 cabs and the amp seemed to have twice the gain, volume and focusing. The only real use I have given to 55hz speakers was in a 2x12 combined with a 75hz one, the combo gave me standard greenback tones with extended bottom end similar to a 4x12 cab, that made a nice portable cab for small gigging.

Lespaulsignature 74

Gold Supporting Member Messages 4,913 I can't chime in on the Celestion G12H-55 Hz cones but I have a 2x12 cab loaded with ASW KTS 60's with 55Hz cones and the bottom is tight and focused. No flab there what so ever when pushing them with either a 72 spec. 100 watt Superlead or Komet 60! J

Jeff West

Member

Messages 1,199 How unfortunate that all those first generation Marshall stack players used "100" cabs factory loaded with T1281s, if we can now determine that their cones were not optimal for lead guitar! Happy 2013 to all! R

Rodrigo Gonzalez

Member

Messages 53

Jeff West said: How unfortunate that all those first generation Marshall stack players used "100" cabs factory loaded with T1281s, if we can now determine that their cones were not optimal for lead guitar! Happy 2013 to all! Click to expand...

I don't know if the reissue 55hz sound like the originals as I have never played thru vintage ones, my opinion is based on the Heritage ones that come with the HW cabs. Perhaps the originals have better midrange and a more controlled bottom end. All the best. Enajera

Enajera

Member

Messages 232 75 hz - think Van Halen 55 hz - slightly more bass All this said, I prefer the 25 watt speakers Also check out the Celestion G12c. I would say this is a marriage of both speakers above. It's also a 25 watt speaker, 50 hz I believe.

Scumback Speakers

Platinum Supporting Member Messages 11,568

Enajera said: Also check out the Celestion G12c. I would say this is a marriage of both speakers above. It's also a 25 watt speaker, 50 hz I believe. Click to expand...

That's incorrect, it's got a 75 hz cone. At least the two I have here do. It is a 25w speaker, though. R

Rodrigo Gonzalez

Member

Messages 53

Scumback Speakers said: That's incorrect, it's got a 75 hz cone. At least the two I have here do. It is a 25w speaker, though. Click to expand...

You're right, I auditioned two 425B cabs along with two 1960BX cabs, all of them brand new with a '74 50W Super Lead. The difference is slight, the G12C is a little bit bassier and has a bit less top end to my ears, but nothing very drastic. Nice speakers anyway.

Stu Blue

Member

Messages 3,167

Jeff West said: How unfortunate that all those first generation Marshall stack players used "100" cabs factory loaded with T1281s, if we can now determine that their cones were not optimal for lead guitar! Happy 2013 to all! Click to expand...

First: Very few folk had T1281 Second: Marshall were under constant player pressure/requests for brighter/less murky amp/cabs...hence the word lead (75hz) or bass(55Hz) in the corner of the late '60s cabs (EDIT I'm probably wrong here that was later 70s i think.).... and the brighter G12H in my cab by 1970. EDIT If you have a look at the threads on the Heritage G12H 75Hz which came out recently you'll notice folk like Gaz enthusing about "feedback like a hose pipe... the 75 Hz cone is more suited to guitar as long as you don't tune lower than D(6th)... BTW I tried the 55Hz at the Marquee in 1975 against the 75Hz...'65 Strat+'65 Marshall+70s Fuzz Face (silicon) no contest.... 75Hz out-sang, higher and lower and sat just so right against horns and B3 Hammond........... (Edit turns out I may well have being playing 55Hz speakers labelled 75Hz and simply comparing my sixties ones to new in 1975 ones...) Last edited: Jan 7, 2013 R

Rodrigo Gonzalez

Member

Messages 53

Stu Blue said: First: Very few folk had T1281 Second: Marshall were under constant player pressure/requests for brighter/less murky amp/cabs...hence the word lead (75hz) or bass(55Hz) in the corner of the late '60s cabs.... and the brighter G12H in my cab by 1970. EDIT If you have a look at the threads on the Heritage G12H 75Hz which came out recently you'll notice folk like Gaz enthusing about "feedback like a hose pipe... the 75 Hz cone is more suited to guitar as long as you don't tune lower than D(6th)... BTW I tried the 55Hz at the Marquee in 1975 against the 75Hz...'65 Strat+'65 Marshall+70s Fuzz Face (silicon) no contest.... 75Hz out-sang, higher and lower and sat just so right against horns and B3 Hammond........... Click to expand...

That's right, back then the battle was for more and more treble, not bass. P

psychodave

Senior Member

Messages 1,200 I've always preferred the 55hz using blackback H30's. Could possibly be because the blackbacks are brighter than their greenback brothers and thus I was getting closer with the 55hz vs the 75 hz? O

Onioner

Member

Messages 2,860 For what it's worth, i have a couple Weber Greenbacks that are identical except one is a 75hz cone and the other is the 55hz. I greatly prefer the latter. Just seems bigger and more full sounding. That said, i also prefer them in single speaker open backed cabs, so not exactly the conventional setup.

Stu Blue

Member

Messages 3,167 http://celestion.com/category/4/guitar/3/heritage/ Just note that the G12H low res is the only 55Hz res Celestion had/have... all the rest are 75 or 85 Hz. The G12M was 1967 (75Hz) the Blue (75Hz) was in the VoxAC30 and the 1962/3 Marshall JTM45 (Beano) The claim that Jimi used the G12H 55Hz version is IMO very dubious (the first singles and the first Experience Album predate the G12H I believe....) J

Jeff West

Member

Messages 1,199 That's right, back then the battle was for more and more treble, not bass. Especially when everyone started putting Crybabies at the front of the chain, ha ha! And Marshall certainly made the Lead amps brighter after 67. Nevertheless, speakers with 55 c/s res were the standard Marshall insert in the 1982 cabs from the late 60s until early 79, and these were definitely widely used. If were talking Marshall cabs with G12H30s in particular, as opposed to earlier or later H or other Celestion versions, for a 10+ year period starting 1968 the 1982 cabs were almost always stock with T1281 IME, which was a type number Celestion gave to greenback G12H25s and 30s (and later cream-, grey-and blackbacks) specifically destined for Marshall. T1281 specs included 50 oz mag, 16 ohm, 50-60 hz cone resonance. The greenbacks often lacked labels as they were frequently going into closed cabs, but when they did have labels they often said Marshall. Just to be clear, if anyone prefers 75s to 55s then or now, I think thats fantastic. I like them myself in many vintage Celestions, esp G12M. Based on my experience with (some) latter day G12H30 recreations, I think the advice to go with 75 over 55 is what I would give too. But for some of us, the sound of certain cranked vintage Marshall through vintage cab with T1281s is one of the classic electric guitar tone experiences life has to offer! 1970 was a good year for T1282 IMO, have some from then that are really fine sounding (IMO). In the old days of the 60s and 70s, the only difference per specs between the 55 and 75 cones themselves used by Celestion in G12Ms was that the 55s had slightly thinner surrounds in the paper and weighed slightly less ( <1/50 oz difference), generating the difference in free air resonance. Ive noticed that many (not necessarily all) of the latter day bass cone G12H versions use a doped cloth surround instead of the continuous paper of the 75s (and vintage 55s) to achieve the lower resonance point, I think thats what Mueller typically offers these days for example. My highly subjective impression is that this may contribute to accentuating the low end diffs of 55 vs. 75s I hear in these, compared to some of the vintage ones. Possibly this also accords with informed reports that the older paper 55 cones often didnt actually fully hit the 55 cycle spec, especially in the 70s, they were harder to make accurately than the 75s. OTOH, many seem to complain that the Heritage T1281s are too stiff and bright! The 1982 cabs first appeared in the 67 Marshall catalog and seemed to first hit the scene in late 1966. They were distinguished from the beginning by the 100 in the corner. At that time, G12Hs and Ms used different paper voice coil formers and were rated at 25W and 20W. Marshall put the "100" on the cabs with G12Hs, as they advertised them as suitable for use singly (!) or in pairs with the new 100W heads. The first two stacks that JHE bought in Oct 66 had the "100", as shown in photos from Paris Olympia that month as well as subsequent late '66 club dates in London. G12Hs (T1134, T1217) and G12Ms (T1220, T1221) with lead cones were made at least as early as late '65, with gold and red Rola Celestion stickers, and greenback versions appeared by Jan '66, I have a couple of G12H25 greenbacks from 1/66 (T1217, with 75 c/s 1777 cones). The earliest T1281 I've seen or heard of was late '66, Sept or Oct IIRC, with "SP 444" 55 hz cone. Seen quite a few '67 T1281s, also with xx 102 014 cones as well as 444. Psychodave, I agree with you about '70s blackback G12H30s with "444". T1281s changed considerably in tone from the '60s through the '70s, but surely that's another thread . . . Great 2013 to all! -Jeff Rod

Rod

Vibrato & String Bender on Overdrive

Gold Supporting Member Messages 27,257 some great info Jeff... thanks...Happy New Year!!

blueswah

Gold Supporting Member Messages 636 Thanks All. Seems there is still some disagreement as to what Bass resonance values of 55hz and 75hz does/ achieves in a Celestion G12H30. Or perhaps I'm getting confused again by the references to other brands (non Celestion) mentioned in the thread.

Scumback Speakers

Platinum Supporting Member Messages 11,568

blueswah said: Thanks All. Seems there is still some disagreement as to what Bass resonance values of 55hz and 75hz does/ achieves in a Celestion G12H30. Or perhaps I'm getting confused again by the references to other brands (non Celestion) mentioned in the thread. Click to expand...

Here's a good start with my cross reference: http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/reference.html And here's a thread with pics. Knock yourself out here for a few hours! https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/67646

Stu Blue

Member

Messages 3,167 I emailed Celestion at the start of this thread, and very promptly they replied as below. drdecibel <[email protected]> Your site gives the date of 1967 for the G12M. When did the G12H (55hz res) and the G12H (75Hz) become available? Is there some substantial reason for thinking that Jimi Hendrix used the 55Hz G12H rather than the 75Hz one? I shared a flat with one of Jimi's road crew in the 70s (Lemmy) so I ought to know... but I don't. I also wrote for the Music press sometimes back then.. so I know that "official"press" was full of B/S and wild guesses filling empty pages.... Your truly Stuart Hi Stuart The Heritage G12M is based on the unit as it was in 1967 but it was actually issued earlier in late 1965/early 66 (dates are a little sketchy this far back!). The 75Hz G12H version dates from a few months earlier and the 55Hz Marshall labelled version (popularly thought of as being used by Hendrix) dates from a few months later so spring 1966. Regards Doc

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