G12H30 55hz Ri's/014 Cone, Is It Close To The Original One

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G12H30 55hz ri's/014 cone, is it close to the original one ?

This is what it sounds like, when cones cry.

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electricskychurch Senior Member Posts: 968 Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:08 pm Location: france

G12H30 55hz ri's/014 cone, is it close to the original one ?

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Post by electricskychurch » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:16 pm

i read the original ones were really good speakers, do the ri's come close ? i never heard thos original ones, with 014 cones. Top User avatar Scumback Speakers Supporting Advertiser Posts: 4517 Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am Just the numbers in order: 13492 Location: Prescott, AZ Contact: Contact Scumback Speakers Website Facebook
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Post by Scumback Speakers » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:04 pm

Not remotely close. Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone sales@scumbackspeakers.com http://www.scumbackspeakers.com 310-833-6632 Top User avatar 908ssp Senior Member Posts: 2954 Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:56 pm Just the numbers in order: 7 Location: Michigan Contact: Contact 908ssp Website
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Post by 908ssp » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:27 pm

I have never heard of a reissue G12H with a 014 cone? The 014 cone was all but gone in 1973-74 they never made any after that. Now they make a G12H with a 55 Hz cone they are the Heritage speakers I never heard that they call the cone a 014 and I have never heard that sound like the real thing. The anniversary G12H doesn't have 014 cone it doesn't even have 444 cone I don't think so it isn't close. Your best bet for a new G12 H with a 55hz cone is the Scumback. I know Jim is to timid to say so himself. I had a cab of them and if I wasn't a sap for collect ability and I couldn't afford the real thing I would have hung on to the set I had. Alex Marshalls.... http://www.myspace.com/alexsattenuator Top electricskychurch Senior Member Posts: 968 Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:08 pm Location: france
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Post by electricskychurch » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:08 am

i bought a full stack HW ( not the head but the two 4x12's ) and i removed the speakers in the slant cab, to put original g12h30 102 003 cones, so i checked the cone numbers on the g12h30 55hz heritage ; if i remember well, they were 102 014 cones ri's (what surprised me ). i will be able to verify that soon as i have to go in the place where i stock some of my equipment (don't have a recording studio anymore for the moment !!) . i tried these heritage 55hz with some late 60's (post 69 circuits ) or early 70's 1987 and 1959 heads and a les paul 59 ri with classic 57; the tone was brighter than i would have thought. they were also stiff but they were not broke up yet. i read there is not the same big difference between greenback 75 and 55hz compare to black backs 75 and 55 hz (that really sound different one from the other from what i heard) but the heritage 55 hz is quiet different sounding than the original g12h30 75 hz with 102 003 cones. hendrix seems to have used the g12h30 55 hz in the later days from what i read several times, i suppose to reduce the harshness of the strat with post 69 superlead circuits , although i never heard these original speakers and don't know if there's such a difference that those 55 hz were sounding much better for strat users with post 69 superleads. it's also said he used superbass or black flag jtm100 's circuits in the later days , with which the g12h30's 75 hz 102 003 combined with a strat are sounding quiet well. i don't know if these original 55hz could have been too dark sounding with those pre 69 lead circuits or superbass ? so, what was his set up in fact from 69 to his death ? superbass type of circuit and g12h30 75 hz 102 003 or superlead with g12h30 55hz 102 014 (unless it was superbass circuit & g12h30 55hz !) ? yes, i'd be curious to hear Jim's g12h30 55 hz clones although i bought some 75 hz clones from him that i compared with my original ones (4 in a 4x12 and the other 4 in another cab, nearly side by side), they sounded good but not exactly the same as the original ones (for me). i have to say that i didn't play them enough to break up their new speaker stiffness , so i suppose they would sound different once they would have been played for a while. anyway, it seems many people love his speakers , including some guys that seem to know what they talk about. so , to be fair i would have to make another test, once they are break up. in any case , i'd love to have the speakers that are the closest to the original ones knowing original ones are not easy to find (so it won't be easy to have a reference tone in my head to compare the clones or ri's). maybe Jim's 55 hz clones are more faithful than heritage ones; i'd be curious to compare (unfortunately i might have to buy them first as there are not many here i can compare with). i have to try those heritage 55 hz cab with a strat and a post 69 lead circuit cause i don't remember if i did. Top electricskychurch Senior Member Posts: 968 Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:08 pm Location: france
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Post by electricskychurch » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:21 am

the g12h30 anniversary has a 1777 cone if i remember well and sound also quiet different from the original 102 003 one (although once again my g12h30 ri's anniversary were not broken up) ! i wonder if the greenback g12h30 75 hz really existed with a 1777 cone; i suppose it might have been for a short time . Last edited by electricskychurch on Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total. Top beaulieu Senior Member Posts: 2161 Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:45 am
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Post by beaulieu » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:30 am

Not sure if they are just stamped this way(you could stamp anything) but The speakers in my New Marshall H.W cab are stampes 102/014 see pics. Now my question is if the Kickin speakers are the 30 plus year old ones then how can anyone say that the new speakers are not the same but new? Sure they dont have the break in time but I dont think anybody can "predict"how these speakers will sound in 30 years?? You also have to think when all the classic recordings were made those speakers were new so maybe it easy to compare new reissue speakers to New vintage speakers by just listning to a album made in 1970?? Image Image Image 69 SuperBass Plexi 12000 Series Bulid 73 1987 68 Nos 50 build 2554 Combo 2550 Silver Jub stack 71 LesPaul Deluxe 68,71,73 4x12 Top electricskychurch Senior Member Posts: 968 Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:08 pm Location: france
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Post by electricskychurch » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:46 am

i knew they were 102 014 ri's ! i think someone that is used to hear the original ones for years and that heard some when they were new, should be able to say if those ri's seem to sound like the original ones or not. also, if you compare what you hear with some already aged and you know how speakers usualy evolute in tone through years, once again i think you can compare. also, as you say, you can compare what you record, with same kind or exactly the same recording equipment , with the record, it gives you a good idea. for example, you take some g12h30 102 003 original greenback's, some g12h30 black backs with 1777 cones, some g12h30 ri's anniversary 75 hz with 1777 cones, some g12m25 102 003 original greenback 's as well as some ri's with 1777 or 6402 cones , as well as some g12h30 heritage 55 hz 102 014 ri's; you put all those in cabs . then you take a sg with classic 57 pu's and say a 71 ( or close) superlead and lead , as well as a 66 jtm45 with kt66 and why not the jtm45/100 with kt66 (although malcolm uses a gretsch with filtertron but in the end , when recording, it's surprisingly close with some classic 57) and you play some ac/dc tracks you record. then you listen to the real records;. the g12h30 with 102 003 cones are the ones that will take you the closest to many early recordings and you will really hear the difference with the other speakers; believe me i did the test (and many other of the same kind). Top User avatar 908ssp Senior Member Posts: 2954 Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:56 pm Just the numbers in order: 7 Location: Michigan Contact: Contact 908ssp Website
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Post by 908ssp » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:10 am

Just because Celestion stamps a number on a cone doesn't make it the same. :roll: Nice to know if you need to recone one but hardly any kind of proof of anything. I have to say that is pretty cool to reproduce the graphic look as close as they did. The type on the word Celestion is a bit thinner on the new speaker but it is darn close. Anyway I suppose you can convince some people that they sound the same by making them look the same. I have four original 014 H speakers and the Scumbacks sound closer to me than the Celestions. The reporting is the Celestions take a very long time to break in the Scumbacks don't. Alex Marshalls.... http://www.myspace.com/alexsattenuator Top User avatar Scumback Speakers Supporting Advertiser Posts: 4517 Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am Just the numbers in order: 13492 Location: Prescott, AZ Contact: Contact Scumback Speakers Website Facebook
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Post by Scumback Speakers » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:10 am

I have posted this online before, and I'll post it again here. I met with Rick Skillman of Celestion back in May, 2005 to compare an original G12H30 T1281 102 014 cone speaker, an H55 Scumback and the Heritage G12H30 Reissue. I used a quad EL 84 Gibson Super Goldtone GA-30 RV head for the tests, testing each speaker in the same cab one at a time. The Heritage was louder, brighter, and had more treble than either the H55 or the original 014 T1281 G12H30. When I say more treble, I mean WAY more treble. When we tested the Heritage, it would nearly rip your ears off with the treble it produced. The treble control on the original and the H55 could be set anywhere you liked without ear fatigue, so 7-8 was where I liked it the best with that amp. With the Heritage it HAD to be set at 0, and the mids had to be rolled off, too. I left that testing realizing that it should have been marked as a 100hz cone, not a 55hz cone. As for the break in, I can only relate my experience and a few clients. I bought one used from the 2nd owner. He got it with 40-50 gigging hours on it, he put another 20-30 home use hours, plus another 20 hours at gig volume. He sold it, I bought it. I put it on my stereo for 25 hours at 20 watts (it's only a 30 watt speaker), then played it at gig volumes for another 10. It never lost any treble in all of that time after almost 100 hours of gig volume and 40 hours of home use volume. Clients that have had them told me they lost patience with them after 2-300 hours of gig volume and that no loosening up, or loss of treble occurred. They may have put a 102 014 code on that cone, but it's no real 014 cone tone clone, that I can assure you. Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone sales@scumbackspeakers.com http://www.scumbackspeakers.com 310-833-6632 Top beaulieu Senior Member Posts: 2161 Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:45 am
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Post by beaulieu » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:36 am

With all do respect,I don't think a proper comparison can be done unless you have a never used Original speaker! Also I read where it was written that you could buy 20 diffrent Old Celestions and only about a couple of them would be "awesome" sounding with the rest of them being crap! So does this apply to just old Celestions?? I am in agreement with the new reissues being very brite but are they all like that?? Couldnt some of the newer speakers be "better" then some of the other same speakers?? Seemes if there is a big viaration in the old speakers then that would apply to all speakers. I have 4 cabs filled with G12 75's and they all sound diffrent!! 69 SuperBass Plexi 12000 Series Bulid 73 1987 68 Nos 50 build 2554 Combo 2550 Silver Jub stack 71 LesPaul Deluxe 68,71,73 4x12 Top 89custom Senior Member Posts: 103 Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:36 am Location: upstate NY Contact: Contact 89custom Website
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Post by 89custom » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:48 am

In my somewhat limited experience, new speakers are very consistent...the variablility of old speakers is probably due to 2 variables: age (a complex variable which would have hours of use as well as different environment effects) and the ammount and area of doping. New speakers don't have the age variable, and the doping seems to be pretty consistent on any particular model. Top Roe Senior Member Posts: 5054 Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:36 pm Just the numbers in order: 7 Location: Drontheim. Norwegen Contact: Contact Roe Website
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Post by Roe » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:55 am

electricskychurch wrote:i knew they were 102 014 ri's ! i think someone that is used to hear the original ones for years and that heard some when they were new, should be able to say if those ri's seem to sound like the original ones or not. also, if you compare what you hear with some already aged and you know how speakers usualy evolute in tone through years, once again i think you can compare. also, as you say, you can compare what you record, with same kind or exactly the same recording equipment , with the record, it gives you a good idea. for example, you take some g12h30 102 003 original greenback's, some g12h30 black backs with 1777 cones, some g12h30 ri's anniversary 75 hz with 1777 cones, some g12m25 102 003 original greenback 's as well as some ri's with 1777 or 6402 cones , as well as some g12h30 heritage 55 hz 102 014 ri's; you put all those in cabs . then you take a sg with classic 57 pu's and say a 71 ( or close) superlead and lead , as well as a 66 jtm45 with kt66 and why not the jtm45/100 with kt66 (although malcolm uses a gretsch with filtertron but in the end , when recording, it's surprisingly close with some classic 57) and you play some ac/dc tracks you record. then you listen to the real records;. the g12h30 with 102 003 cones are the ones that will take you the closest to many early recordings and you will really hear the difference with the other speakers; believe me i did the test (and many other of the same kind).
I have scumback H75s, H55, M75 and weber's c1230-55. I've gotten the best ac/dc sounds with the H75s and c1230-55 so far (using a mal young signature gretsch w/tv classics and a tokai sg155 with t top copies and mostly a jtm45) I seems that the early ac/dc recordings often used celestions from the 70's - mostly H55s and H75s, I believe. http://www.myspace.com/20bonesband" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://www.myspace.com/prostitutes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Super 100 amps: 1202-119 & 1202-84 JTM45 RS OT JTM50 JMP50 1959/2203/34/39 Top User avatar HEAVIER THAN HELL Senior Member Posts: 279 Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:31 am Location: Newcastle, UK Contact: Contact HEAVIER THAN HELL Website
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Post by HEAVIER THAN HELL » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:25 pm

I've had dozens of old Celestions and my findings were as above - very inconsistent. The best 55Hz G12H-30s I've had are my current speakers - they're just reconed cremebacks using a Celestion 55Hz cone kit. At first they were very bass-heavy, but they opened up after a while and are much more balanced now. 8) Top beaulieu Senior Member Posts: 2161 Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:45 am
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Post by beaulieu » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:34 pm

I have a 76 cab with 30 watt black backs 55hz. I also find these to be somewhat harsh kinda the same as my reissue HW cab speakers. They do sound alot better the louder I run them!! I always thought my 73 100 watt cab with creambacks(i think,no cover) sounded bad for it was a little darker sounding but I have come to realize that they are the sound people look for!!I also have 4 cabs with 75's and one of them is very brittlr/brite sounding!! Last I have 2 65's and havnt really come to a conclusion on them yet. They are from 82 but I think they dont have many hours on them yet?? 69 SuperBass Plexi 12000 Series Bulid 73 1987 68 Nos 50 build 2554 Combo 2550 Silver Jub stack 71 LesPaul Deluxe 68,71,73 4x12 Top User avatar Scumback Speakers Supporting Advertiser Posts: 4517 Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am Just the numbers in order: 13492 Location: Prescott, AZ Contact: Contact Scumback Speakers Website Facebook
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Post by Scumback Speakers » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:36 pm

beaulieu wrote:With all do respect,I don't think a proper comparison can be done unless you have a never used Original speaker! Also I read where it was written that you could buy 20 diffrent Old Celestions and only about a couple of them would be "awesome" sounding with the rest of them being crap! So does this apply to just old Celestions?? I am in agreement with the new reissues being very brite but are they all like that?? Couldnt some of the newer speakers be "better" then some of the other same speakers?? Seemes if there is a big viaration in the old speakers then that would apply to all speakers. I have 4 cabs filled with G12 75's and they all sound diffrent!!
And I can only make this observation since I've spent 40K on old Celestions and picked out the "holy grails" from each model, so I've made a proper comparison, as near as I can tell. Having a never used 40 year old speaker isn't really an option, and that now leaves the whole idea of a newer speaker sounding like an old one that was never played out of the question. Here's my take on it, which has been verified by hundreds of clients. 1) The old G12M's and H's didn't sound their best initially and of course, they got beat up with two shows per nite, typically 1.5-2 hours each show by the touring bands of the time (Cream, Hendrix, etc.). While it's one tact to buy a new speaker and "break it in" slowly, how many of you are playing 3-4 hours per day with your 100 watt dimed? And of course, we are talking two cabs, not just one, to make sure your 100 watt didn't fry a single cab. 2) All of the Celestions from that time frame were VERY inconsistent, and there were ok speakers, and holy grails. In my experience, it took me over 300 old Celestion purchases to find about 30 holy grail speakers. So that's 1 in 10 after 30-40 years. Sure, some got mistreated, some were bad, some were reconed, but overall, about 40% passed tests for new speakers, but just didn't do anything for me. Another 20% were excellent, and very few hit "holy grail" status. 3) The paper pulp mixture was a Pulsonic exclusive, Black Gamma (or some such name), and after their factory burned down in 74, Celestion had to switch back to the Kurt-Mueller cones, 1777 & 444. They never, ever sounded like the Pulsonic cones, and got about 85-90% of the way there. I know, I've bought well over a hundred of those, too...which I though were the holy grail... until I heard the Pulsonic cone versions. Then they came in 2nd or 3rd, as I like the 6402 cones they put out in the late 80's better than the 1777 & 444 cones. 4) Celestion made frequent design and cone treatment changes. You could get speakers made two months apart and they would sound different. The G12-65 had over 40 versions in it's 4 year lifespan, so I'd have to figure the 75's had changes as well, so I'm not surprised that your G12T-75 cabs all sound different. I've experienced that as well. I still have four G12T-75's in a cab for reference. 5) Could the newer speakers sound better than some of the other newer speakers? Sure, I guess they could, but I haven't heard anything like that from any of the Heritage H30 owners. Every review or discussion talks about how bright they are, and how they take forever to break in. This wasn't the case back in the 60's, so you know the cone paper formula isn't the same, or some other thing they're doing isn't the same.... otherwise they wouldn't take so long to break in. In fact, I've never heard anyone say they played their H30 Heritages long enough to have them sound like an original 102 014 cone. Surely, if they had followed their own designs/cone/etc. these speakers wouldn't be getting the reviews they are getting when compared to originals. They did much better on their G12M Heritage, actually, but the H30? Uh...no. Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone sales@scumbackspeakers.com http://www.scumbackspeakers.com 310-833-6632 Top Post Reply
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